Jump to content

  • Log in with Twitter Log in with Windows Live Log In with Steam Log In with Google      Sign In   
  • Create Account

Photo
- - - - -

Duel: Brewster Model 239 (Finland) vs I-16 type 24


  • Please log in to reply
29 replies to this topic

#21 CORSNING

CORSNING

    Forum Guru

  • Forum Guru
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,732 posts
  • Joined 4 Years, 6 Months and 30 Days
  • 191 topics
  • LocationClyde, Ohio, USA

Posted 15 February 2018 - 07:58 PM

Great pictures HR.



#22 bearoutwest

bearoutwest

    Regular Member

  • Regulars
  • PipPipPip
  • 164 posts
  • Joined 13 Years and 28 Days
  • 2 topics

Posted 16 February 2018 - 05:56 AM

Interesting stuff HR.  Is it a good Museum?

 

Some more Brewster 239 info from Dan Ford's website.

https://www.warbirdforum.com/faf.htm

 

...geoff


  • Heräkulman Ruhtinas likes this

#23 Rick65

Rick65

    Registered Member

  • Regulars
  • PipPipPip
  • 201 posts
  • Joined 6 Years, 1 Month and 28 Days
  • 3 topics
  • LocationPerth, Western Australia

Posted 16 February 2018 - 06:37 AM

Thanks for the link to that site - it was the source for most of my previous post but I lost the address.



#24 bearoutwest

bearoutwest

    Regular Member

  • Regulars
  • PipPipPip
  • 164 posts
  • Joined 13 Years and 28 Days
  • 2 topics

Posted 16 February 2018 - 07:12 AM

Dan Ford has condensed his message board/forum due to a decline in traffic; but all the good data/articles on the Brewster, the Flying Tigers, Nakajima Ki-43 Oscar, and the early Chinese Air Force are still there.

 

While we're talking about the porcine bovine (porky buffalo), here's a link to a thread on some photos I found at the Langley Research Centre archives on an 8-gun layout for the XF2A prototype.

https://www.tapatalk...ird-topics-f68/

 

...geoff


  • Heräkulman Ruhtinas likes this

#25 Rick65

Rick65

    Registered Member

  • Regulars
  • PipPipPip
  • 201 posts
  • Joined 6 Years, 1 Month and 28 Days
  • 3 topics
  • LocationPerth, Western Australia

Posted 16 February 2018 - 08:04 AM

Good to see that the stuff on the P-43 is still there as well.

Republic P-43 Lancer in Chinese service

#26 Heräkulman Ruhtinas

Heräkulman Ruhtinas

    Advanced Member

  • Regulars
  • PipPipPip
  • 341 posts
  • Joined 2 Years, 6 Months and 29 Days
  • 13 topics
  • LocationRiga, Latvia

Posted 16 February 2018 - 06:04 PM

Interesting stuff HR.  Is it a good Museum?

 

Some more Brewster 239 info from Dan Ford's website.

https://www.warbirdforum.com/faf.htm

 

...geoff

 

It is awesome.

 

http://airforcemuseum.fi/


  • CORSNING likes this

-<HR>-

Heräkulman Ruhtinas

Prince of Heräkulma

 


#27 CORSNING

CORSNING

    Forum Guru

  • Forum Guru
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,732 posts
  • Joined 4 Years, 6 Months and 30 Days
  • 191 topics
  • LocationClyde, Ohio, USA

Posted 16 February 2018 - 09:34 PM

The whole B-239 vs I-16 seems like a mirror lmage of the P-40 vs Zero. Equal but

you have to use your aircraft's best properties do dominate the combat. And never,

never fly outside your aircraft's best operating areas if at all possible.


Edited by CORSNING, 17 February 2018 - 03:35 PM.


#28 bearoutwest

bearoutwest

    Regular Member

  • Regulars
  • PipPipPip
  • 164 posts
  • Joined 13 Years and 28 Days
  • 2 topics

Posted Yesterday, 02:59 AM

I guessing that only a small percentage of fighter-v-fighter victories were the result of turning-performance dogfighting; and that the bounce claimed a very high percentage of those victories.  (Guessing because that's the impression I get from all these years of reading, not because I've had the facts, time or desire to catalog and count them.)  Situation awarenes and tactical advantage at the start of the encounter - perhaps more decisive than 10% advantage in specified performance?

 

A little sidetrack to illustrate:

How does a P-40E with 2000+ ft height DISADVANTAGE shoot down a Bf109F?  (Yes, P-40 was below the Bf109.)

 

If you are RAAF pilot Clive Caldwell serving with the RAF in the desert - you nose down into a shallow dive, pull up sharply to aim at your target and fire off a 2-3 second burst of 50-cal.  Caldwell was an exceptional marksman - very unusual for serving RAF pilots of the time.  Both formations were aware of the other, and I presume the Germans were waiting for the right moment to bounce, as they were flying parallel for some time. The German flight leader was reported to have called it a "fantastic" shot.  The dogfight did not take place after that shoot-down as the Bf109s did not consider they had any further advantage (from memory).  Later historical writers have considered that - under the common use German language of the time - "fantastic" more likely meant "incredibly lucky".  (Both the German flight leader and the shot-down pilot are known - just not at hand as I write, so a real incident, not urban legend.)

 

...geoff


Edited by bearoutwest, Yesterday, 03:20 AM.


#29 bearoutwest

bearoutwest

    Regular Member

  • Regulars
  • PipPipPip
  • 164 posts
  • Joined 13 Years and 28 Days
  • 2 topics

Posted Yesterday, 03:16 AM

Double-up, so I'll add the quote from the wiki article on Clive Caldwell here:.

 

"Caldwell scored another striking victory in February 1942, while leading a formation of 11 Kittyhawks from 112 Sqn and 3 Sqn. Over Gazala, he sighted a schwarm of Bf 109Fs flying some 2,000 ft higher. Caldwell immediately nosed into a shallow dive, applied maximum power and boost, then pulled his Kittyhawk up into a vertical climb. With his P-40 "hanging from its propeller," he fired a burst at a Bf 109 flown by Leutnant Hans-Arnold Stahlschmidt of I./JG 27, who was lagging behind the others. Stahlschmidt's fighter "shuddered like a carpet being whacked with a beater" before spinning out of control. Although the Kittyhawk pilots thought that the Bf 109 had crashed inside Allied lines, Stahlschmidt was able to crash-land in friendly territory."

 

(Clive Caldwell hated his propaganda nickname "Killer".)

 

...geoff


Edited by bearoutwest, Yesterday, 03:20 AM.


#30 Heräkulman Ruhtinas

Heräkulman Ruhtinas

    Advanced Member

  • Regulars
  • PipPipPip
  • 341 posts
  • Joined 2 Years, 6 Months and 29 Days
  • 13 topics
  • LocationRiga, Latvia

Posted Yesterday, 11:48 AM

I guessing that only a small percentage of fighter-v-fighter victories were the result of turning-performance dogfighting; and that the bounce claimed a very high percentage of those victories.  (Guessing because that's the impression I get from all these years of reading, not because I've had the facts, time or desire to catalog and count them.)  Situation awarenes and tactical advantage at the start of the encounter - perhaps more decisive than 10% advantage in specified performance?

 

 

 

Exactly.

 

Almost every "ace" pilot bounced their prey from advantageous position and avoided turning fights like a plague.

 

Finns scored victories with Brewster against such adversaries like P-39, P-40 and La-5, which all were on paper more or less superior. 


-<HR>-

Heräkulman Ruhtinas

Prince of Heräkulma

 





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users