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Vought F4U-4 vs. Lavochkin La-7 (3-gun)


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#51 stringedbean

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 09:57 PM

I have to express my frustration with this thread. 

 

There seems to be a disposition to use older La-7 figures from Jan '45 and even as far back as Nov '44, and even use F4U-4 stats from as recent as 1946. It's worth noting that these figures pre-date a lot of the improvements in manufacturing and maintenance implemented between after Fall 44', reflected in the drop in grounded aircraft from ~27% of the fleet in Jan '45 to ~17.5% in May '45. Seeing as the F4U-4 didn't enter service until May '45 I think a fair fight would have to pit the F4 against a post-May '45 production La-7. On top of that, if we are top speculate as to when these fighters might encounter each other, it would probably be August '45 maybe shortly after. I don't have exact performance by month 

 

Качественный состав боевых самолетов воздушных армий фронтов к концу Великой Отечественной войны на 10 мая 1945 г.Советская авиация в Великой Отечественной войне в цифрах

 

Here are April '45 trials for the La-7, which I think offer a better comparison. 

 

During the period April 1945 La-7 serial No.452132-76 underwent production test trials at the NII-VVS. Below is some of the data from those tests (F4U for comparison). 

 

                                     F4U-4                                 La-7      

Sea Level:                  389 / 3870                        383 / 4726

  1,000                        389 / 3500                        397 / 4726

  2,000                        396 / 3455                        411 / 3936

  3,000                        408 / 3410                        408 / 3660

  4,000                        420 / 3365                        401 / 2952

  5,000                        432 / 3320                        405 / 2952

  6,000                        445 / 2915                        418 / 2499

  7,000                        445 / 2840                        414 / 2007

  8,000                        454 / 2380                        405 / 1495

  9,000                        435 / 1870

10,000                        416 / 1350

11,000                        397 /   860

 

Speed (La-7):

FTH low s/c: 414 mph./2,200 m. (7,218 ft.)

FTH high s/c: 421 mph./6,250 m. (20,505 ft.)

Climb:

Critical altitude low: 4,662fpm./1,600 m. (5,249 ft.

Critical altitude high: 2,952 fpm./5,700 m. (16,732 ft.)

 

It's also worth considering how late IAPs with La-7s were arriving at the front, and may have been equipped with 7s made after April '45. Could these be considered "late '45 variants"? (http://www.rkka.es/a..._027/02_027.htm)



#52 CORSNING

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Posted 13 July 2017 - 12:29 PM

Hi stringedbean,

The figures you have posted for the La-7 are for the 2-gun version No.452132-76.

Test trial were held in April 1945. They are very representative of contemporary

aircraft of 1945.

The title of this thread and the comparison Erik Pilawskii made in his book was of

the 3-gun version. The figures for the 3-gun version can be found in post #8 of

this thread.

Jeff :)



#53 Romantic Technofreak

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Posted Yesterday, 08:13 AM

I'm silently getting fed up with the praise of the Mustang!
IMHO lies the sole legacy of the Mustang in the D-model wich was able to reach Berlin reasoned in it's enlarged internal gastank. This made it the legendary escort fighter of the 8th airforce, but the truth isn't told in this gloyfying: The fuel load made it incapable of taking up any fight for more than the first half part of the trip towards Berlin, however, due to lack of fuel it was neither suitable to be an effective escort all the way home.
Hence the legendary Mustang worked up it's reputation by the help of an ignored amount of fighters wich escorted the bombers towards the rendevous point of the Mustangs and later had their own rendevous to follow the returning bombers home!

 

Well, nobody claims the Mustang won the war on its own. But at a certain point of time, it was the Mustang which made the difference. Not only by its phenomenal range, but also by the two-staged supercharger of its Merlin engine wich made it a superior fighter at altitude over its German counterparts.

 

Surely, for Germany the war was lost long before the Mustang apperared on the theatre. But without the Mustang, the war might have lasted a lot further. Without the Mustang as escort, deep penetration of large bomber fleets into German airspace had not been possible, if only for the price of horrible losses.

 

In the jungle of all large-scale attacks that happened you might easily miss the crucial ones. These were the ones on the railway centers for coal distribution in September 1944 (which had been impossible without Mustang escorts, I repeat. I quote from memory and might be unexact). By this, the bombers managed to virtually cut the Ruhr area from the rest of the Reich. The German armament industry could only carry on by coal shipping from the mines in Upper Silesia. When this area was conquered by the Red Army end of January 1945, the German armament industry completely broke down the following February. Thus, the war in Europe would in continue only a few months more.

 

Regards, RT



#54 Armand

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Posted Yesterday, 10:28 AM

You dont get my point: The Mustang did escort to Berlin and back but only from about the Ruhr area and back to the same point. The other half was performed by the unspoken hero: The P-47, wich brought the bomber to the Ruhr and later retrieved them from the same point again when the famed Mustang was dried out and hadn't fuel to use in a possible dogfight!

#55 Romantic Technofreak

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Posted Yesterday, 05:39 PM

Nobody doubts that. But the task the Thunderbolt did as escort fighter could have been performed by any Allied first-line fighter of 1944 too. In contrary, the task the Mustang did could not be performed by any other plane.

 

Regards, RT



#56 Armand

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Posted Yesterday, 07:28 PM

Nobody doubts that. But the task the Thunderbolt did as escort fighter could have been performed by any Allied first-line fighter of 1944 too. In contrary, the task the Mustang did could not be performed by any other plane.
 
Regards, RT


Any?
It was the fewest US fighters wich managed the flight level of the bombers. Of the three being present in ETO: P-47, P-38 and P-51was the P-47 the one with the shortest range. Hence the P-38 had been chosen for long distance escorts before the precence of the Merlin-Mustang.
The Brit-fighters was primarely short ranged interceptors and the only one to have considerable range was the Mosquito.
However, the P-47 fullfilled the need of suplementarely fighter to the P-51 perfect.

#57 CORSNING

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Posted Yesterday, 09:07 PM

Nobody doubts that. But the task the Thunderbolt did as escort fighter could have been performed by any Allied first-line fighter of 1944 too. In contrary, the task the Mustang did could not be performed by any other plane.

 

Regards, RT

RT, for the most part you are absolutely right. However there is the P-38. In January,

it is true that it was not quite up to the task. This is not because it did not have the range

or the performance to handle the Luftwaffe fighters above 20,000 ft. The absolute main

reasons it was not up to the task was two fold. Neither the engine on British fuel or the

pilots with inadequate heating were able to do their jobs properly. The decision to go

with the Merlin Mustangs in the ETO was the correct one. Starting in June 1944 It freed

up the P-38J-25s and P-38Ls to be sent to other areas of conflict. These P-38s had the 

proper cockpit heating, defrosting of the windscreen and dive brakes that made this

aircraft every bit the equal of the Mustang, performance wise. These Lightnings could

make the 2,200 ml. journey. Just an FYI, Jeff :)



#58 CORSNING

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Posted Yesterday, 09:13 PM

Any?
It was the fewest US fighters wich managed the flight level of the bombers. Of the three being present in ETO: P-47, P-38 and P-51was the P-47 the one with the shortest range. Hence the P-38 had been chosen for long distance escorts before the precence of the Merlin-Mustang.
The Brit-fighters was primarely short ranged interceptors and the only one to have considerable range was the Mosquito.
However, the P-47 fullfilled the need of suplementarely fighter to the P-51 perfect.

The truth is Armand, RT is right. The F4U-1, FM-2, F6F-5 and even the P-40N & P-39Q

could have pulled off the early escort duty of the P-47.

 

Now then, this is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY OOOOOOOOOOOOFFFFFFFFFF

TOPIC.

 

There are some serious demerits to be had here, me inclusive I am afraid. :(


Edited by CORSNING, Yesterday, 09:15 PM.


#59 Armand

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Posted Yesterday, 10:33 PM

The truth is Armand, RT is right. The F4U-1, FM-2, F6F-5 and even the P-40N & P-39Q
could have pulled off the early escort duty of the P-47.
. :(


I deliberately used the phrase 'present at the ETO', however even with your extension it still isn't 'any allied first line fighter'!

#60 Stony

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Posted Today, 10:06 AM

FM-2's were deployed in the ETO...

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