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#11 Armand

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 09:18 PM

.
His special topic was how the slats on the Bf 109 enabled it to fly at higher AoA, turn inside a Spitfire and shoot across the circle.

However, that is actual what is needed in a turning fight, hence the attacker need to be able to turn rather tighter than the persued! Getting the one in front into the gun-sight does obviously demand a tighter turn. To this are to add more for aiming afront of the persued.
Whether the LE slats on the 109 was providing this ability or not are based in whether there exist a turning-stall term or not: Can an aircraft turn hard enough to create a spin?
If this is the case, it might be to read in the stall-speed of the 109 compared to it's opponents: If it's remarkable lower there might be some wisdom in the statement, but I doubt!
Who got the numbers? Jeff??

Edited by Armand, 02 November 2016 - 09:26 PM.


#12 Armand

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 09:32 PM

Some of his greatest hits in there - like B-17s shot down more German fighters than any allied fighter.....

The 8th airforce is credited for about 6000 enemy fighters!

#13 flying kiwi

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 01:26 AM

The 8th airforce is credited for about 6000 enemy fighters!

The 8th Air Force also had B-24s and its own fighter groups. I doubt if all the kills were made by B-17 gunners. The 8th also included strafing kills on the ground for at least part of the war, and I suspect that B-17s were not heavily involved in these. The information I have managed to quickly find on the F6-F credits it with 5163 kills. Although shooter's claim was for all B-17s, I am a little suspicious of it.


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#14 Wuzak

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 03:18 AM

The 8th airforce is credited for about 6000 enemy fighters!

 

If B-17s did indeed shoot down that many fighters then what did they need the P-51 for?


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#15 flying kiwi

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 09:52 AM

Strategic bombing, obviously.

 

http://www.worldwarp...ous_Frankie.jpg


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#16 Wuzak

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 12:49 PM

However, that is actual what is needed in a turning fight, hence the attacker need to be able to turn rather tighter than the persued! Getting the one in front into the gun-sight does obviously demand a tighter turn. To this are to add more for aiming afront of the persued.
Whether the LE slats on the 109 was providing this ability or not are based in whether there exist a turning-stall term or not: Can an aircraft turn hard enough to create a spin?
If this is the case, it might be to read in the stall-speed of the 109 compared to it's opponents: If it's remarkable lower there might be some wisdom in the statement, but I doubt!
Who got the numbers? Jeff??

 

Of course the Bf 109 was not capable of out-turning the Spitfire, even with its slats.

 

The Spitfire managed to beat the 109 in two ways in turning - a tighter radius and a faster turn speed.



#17 Kutscha

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 01:26 PM

The Hungarian lawyer will disagree with that Wuzak.



#18 CORSNING

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 06:54 PM

     In an interview back in the 1970s Erich Hartmann was asked if the Spitfire

could outturn the Bf.109. He answered, " Yes, but not as much as you might

think. With that statement I would say the Bf.109 lighter models without under

wing gun gondulas probably turned a fairly close second to the contemporary

Spitfire at lower altitudes and slow to medium speeds.

     The Bf.109 was a very maneuverable aircraft. The Bf.109F could outturn the

Russian Yak-1 and the Bf.109E could outturn the French D.520 in a sustained turn.

     " The Bf.109, owing to its slats, could easily sustain the turn on the edge of a

stall."  Of course this was at altitudes up to around 20,000 ft. I think.


Edited by CORSNING, 03 November 2016 - 06:55 PM.

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#19 Heräkulman Ruhtinas

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 07:21 PM

Regarding Bf109 turning character vs Spitfire among other things, I had the impression that Bf109 can indeed momentarily turn in tighter radius than Spitfire, but it bleeds speed in sustained turn much faster than Spitfire. Hence smart to avoid turn fights, because after fer turns, you have lost your speed with Bf109.


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#20 CORSNING

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 08:35 PM

Herakulman,

     The initial advantage (if there is one) of the Bf.109 might be due to acceleration

into the roll. However the Spitfire had a maximum roll rate of 105 degrees/second

at 200 mph. That is excellent. I do not have information on the roll rate of the Bf.109.

     Turn times for the Bf.109E-3 using the slots to there fullest is 18.92 seconds to

complete a 360 degree turn. The Spitfire Mk.VB was tested in 1943 at 6,438 lbs. and

could complete the same in 18.8 seconds. That is extremely close. Turn time of the

Bf.109F is 19.6 seconds.

     Aircraft speed and diameter of circles is not given for any of the above times.


Edited by CORSNING, 03 November 2016 - 08:37 PM.

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