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Duel: Messerschmitt Me 262 vs. Gloster Meteor


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#351 flying kiwi

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Posted 29 August 2017 - 06:12 AM

I understand that the Meteor F Mk III had speeds ranging between 465 mph (prototype) and 493 mph in the short nacelle versions. Which Me 262 service variant was almost 150 mph faster? 



#352 Kutscha

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Posted 29 August 2017 - 11:57 AM

The bomber version of the 262, created at the behest of the Fuhrer himself, was a resource-wasting nightmare of a machine.

 

Hitler wanted the 262 as a tactical bomber but MTT was already working on bomb carrier installations.



#353 curmudgeon

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 01:03 PM

I understand that the Meteor F Mk III had speeds ranging between 465 mph (prototype) and 493 mph in the short nacelle versions. Which Me 262 service variant was almost 150 mph faster? 

none at all. Me262 safe speeds topped at about 550mph, much beyond that you were likely flying a fuselage ...

 

The long nacelle Meteor III appeared at the end of the war as a field mod ... but I haven't found any reliable information on how many were modded by 7 May. Long nacelle Mk III were factory delivered for the end of the production run ... this was about 6 months after long nacelles were proved on a test bed. For dates I'd need to dig out the special issue of The Aeroplane on the Meteor (about 5 years ago?).

 

The 606 and 616mph speed record Meteors were special builds.



#354 bearoutwest

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 01:51 PM

Funny how coincidences somehow line events up nicely!

 

I received my copy of the old Steven Bond book "Meteor - Gloster's First Jet Fighter" in the mail today.  It notes that the final 15 production line F3s were finished with the long nacelles.  The Air Vectors webpage on the Meteor states that an "unknown" number of additional F3s were field-modified with long nacelles....though not specifc on numbers, units or locations of field-mod work.

 

My copy of British Military Aircraft Serials would designate these final 15 F3s as:

EE425-EE429, EE444-EE453

 

As an aside the Welland-powered F3 (EE215) was a prototype with afterburners.  I wonder what sort of performance specs this achieved?


Edited by bearoutwest, 06 September 2017 - 02:00 PM.


#355 bearoutwest

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 02:29 PM

From the Shacklady book "Gloster Meteor":

Initial reheat trials with Meteor F1 (EE215), followed by further trials with Meteor F3 (EE291).

Reheat added a modest 23mph to top speed of F3; i.e. 491mph (with 14.95in diameter nozzle) compared with 469mph for standard F3.

Total fuel consumption was about 1.5 times that of a standard F3 with small jet nozzle.

 

The F4 version with the Derwent 5 engine and long nozzles would be 20% faster than the standard short nozzle F3.  (I approximate around 560mph compared with F3's 469mph top speed.)



#356 curmudgeon

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 05:42 AM

From the Shacklady book "Gloster Meteor":

Initial reheat trials with Meteor F1 (EE215), followed by further trials with Meteor F3 (EE291).

Reheat added a modest 23mph to top speed of F3; i.e. 491mph (with 14.95in diameter nozzle) compared with 469mph for standard F3.

Total fuel consumption was about 1.5 times that of a standard F3 with small jet nozzle.

 

The F4 version with the Derwent 5 engine and long nozzles would be 20% faster than the standard short nozzle F3.  (I approximate around 560mph compared with F3's 469mph top speed.)

From somewhere (that glorious source!) I remember being quoted the long nacelle added 75mph to the Mk III top speed (which I quoted years ago on this thread) ... this was at altitude.



#357 Pete57

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 05:50 PM

There is a January 9, 1945 document that can be found online (link) providing the calculated and predicted airspeed at sea level and at 30K feet, in relation to the thrust of the engines.

This, same document can also be found at the pages 219 and 220 of RAF METEOR JET FIGHTERS IN WORLD WAR II – AN OPERATIONAL LOG, by Hugh Arkins, Centurion Publishing , U.K.

 

(quote) …The first fifteen Meteor III’s will be fitted with the W.2B/23 engines giving a static thrust of 1,600 lbs.

Sea level – 410 m.p.h.

30,000 ft. – 445 m.p.h.

The sixteenth and subsequent aircraft. will have the B.37 engines at 1,800 lbs thrust

Sea level – 435 m.p.h.

30,000 ft. – 465 m.p.h.

The B.37 engines giving an increased thrust of 2,000 lbs. will be introduced somewhere about the 40th aircraft.

Sea level – 465 m.p.h.

30,000 ft. – 485 m.p.h.

At some later date, at present unspecified, these same engines will give 2,200 lbs. thrust

Sea level – 485 m.p.h.

30,000 ft. – 503 m.p.h.

By about the 160th aircraft. (June or July 1945), the B.37 engine will be developed to its maximum thrust of 2,400 lbs.

Sea level – 505 m.p.h.

30,000 ft. – 520 m.p.h.

Until modified engine nacelles can be introduced (in August, according to present estimates), the Meteor III will be subject to a speed limitation of 500 m.p.h. (indicated) up to a height of 6,500 ft. reducing proportionally to 300 m.p.h. (indicated) at 30,000 ft. Every effort is being made to expedite the introduction of the new engine nacelles, but I think it is doubtful  whether the firm will beat the estimated date of August. …(end of quote).

 

Many a source has downplayed the Meteor I’s speed by saying it was lower than the speed of the late prop planes then in service.

Another document, dated Sep. 29, 1944 (link) (and on pages 215-216 of Mr. Arkins’ book), put things in the right perspective.

 

(quote) …The following figures of speed and rate of climb of Meteor I and other types are interesting  :”

At 10,000 feet

                                  Meteor  I           Spitfire XIV         Mustang III         Tempest V

Rate of climb in

Ft. per minute      2,500                  4,500                     3,600                     2,900

Speed, m.p.h.     430                       405                         403                         402

At 15,000 feet

                                  Meteor  I           Spitfire XIV         Mustang III         Tempest V

Rate of climb in

Ft. per minute      2,250                  3,700                     3,000                     2,750

Speed, m.p.h.     436                       415                         425                         411

From these figures it will be seen that while the Meteor I is faster than the other types, it is considerably inferior in rate of climb. … (end of quote).

 

The Meteor Mk.  I’s (Gloster G41A’s) and the early, W2B/23-powered  Mk. III’s (Gloster G41C’s) that served with No. 616 Squadron, could reach a speed of 410 m.p.h. at sea level and 445 m.p.h. at 30K.

Not so well known is the fact that one of the Meteor I delivered to the unit , EE 221/G, had been fitted with two 2,000 lbs. thrust Power jets W2/700, to verify their serviceability under operational conditions. EE221/G demonstrated speeds of 443 m.p.h., 460 m.p.h., 465 m.p.h., and 448 m.p.h. at sea level, 15K ft., 25K feet, and 30K ft. respectively, consistent with those of the Meteor III’s fitted with the 2,000 lbs. thrust B.37 Derwent I.

 

If the “The B.37 engines giving an increased thrust of 2,000 lbs. will be introduced somewhere about the 40th aircraft” statement proved to be correct, then Squadron No. 616 received the first 1,800 lbs-Derwent I powered aircraft, EE245 thru EE254, along with first  2,000 lbs-Derwent I powered aircraft EE270 thru EE278 (Gloster G41D’s), during its wartime service.

As well, one of their G41C’s, EE243, had been upgraded to G41D standards and as such it served with the unit in Holland and Germany, at the end of WWII.

The extended nacelles were fitted to the last 15 Mk. III’s (EE479 thru EE493), taking the Gloster designation G.41E. The first delivered to an operational unit (EE481) went to Squadron No. 222 becoming ZD-U.

 

Some G41D’s were upgraded to G41E standard, and it was the G41E’s that were fitted with the 2,200 lbs. Derwent IV’s (for obvious reasons), not all of them, though.

Unfortunately, I haven’t so far, been able to find information on specific aircraft that were fitted with this, specific engine.

 

HTH.

 

Best regards.

 

Pete57


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#358 bearoutwest

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 02:05 AM

Good job, Pete.

My copy of Harkin's book has been in temporary storage during delayed minor house renovations, so I'm glad you were able to quote those figures.  Nice find on the attached document.

 

Have you managed to find anything about the "delta wing Meteor" Gloster P.262 proposal in your travels?

 

...geoff






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