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Spitfire vs FW-190


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#1 kids

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 10:13 AM

Which is the BEST overall European fighter during WWII?

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#2 Lightning

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 08:52 PM

Hi kids,

See "Best Fighter" thread. Are you really sure you want to ask this question? Really?

Regards,
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#3 kids

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 09:47 PM

"See "Best Fighter" thread. Are you really sure you want to ask this question? Really?"

Of course, why not? Its complete different discussion. My question focus mainly on European theature and concentrat on European brands: Spitfire and Fw-190. Its not about Best Fighter of WWII, which would include US and Japan into the competition too.

#4 kids

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 09:51 PM

The reason that I want to compare Spitfire and Fw-190 was that I have heard thousand times that people claim that Spitfire IX was superior to Fw-190. But I could not find any adequate to back up that claim. Beside Germans, like British, continued to upgrand their technology. So, in my opinons, I dont think Spitfire can outperformed Fw-190. Fw-190 still dominated the theature until the appearance of P-51.

#5 Che_Guevara

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 10:25 PM

quote: Fw-190 still dominated the theature until the appearance of P-51.


yep, thats right, but it dominated the sky over germany and there was no Spit´(can´t fly so far away)^^ so i´m not surprised that the Fw 190 rules the sky,also because of the fact that there were no adequat contrahents until the appearance of the P-51.



#6 kids

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 10:31 PM

"but it dominated the sky over germany and there was no Spit"

I thought Fw-190 had better range than Spit

#7 panzerjager88

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 03:24 AM

the 190 does...

but the point was that the spit (the fighters at least) couldn't move inland much further than a bit off the french coast, so the meat of the engagements would of happened far more inland where the spitty couldn't actually reach

there WERE fights between spits and 190s though, IIRC mainly during british CAPs and fighter sweeps aimed at getting the luftwaffe up to fight

IIRC the appearance of the 190 was a bit of the shock to the spit pilots, I suspect certain varients of the 190 could outperform certain varients of the spit, just as the converse was completely true

its a rather tough comparison thought because of the incremental improvements on both types

#8 jairogut

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 08:33 AM

quote:Originally posted by kids

The reason that I want to compare Spitfire and Fw-190 was that I have heard thousand times that people claim that Spitfire IX was superior to Fw-190. But I could not find any adequate to back up that claim. Beside Germans, like British, continued to upgrand their technology. So, in my opinons, I dont think Spitfire can outperformed Fw-190. Fw-190 still dominated the theature until the appearance of P-51.

I am literally tired of people saying that the P-51 changed all in the skies. I know it was a good a/c but it was not the best overall fighter (perphaps the best scort fighter), and it's praised versions (p51b to k) only were 1 year in service. The FW 190 was in service for four years and it basically didnt have any major modifications untin the inline version was produced. If you compare a p51k and a ta 152h, the Tank 152 is the best of them.

#9 kids

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 10:47 AM

By the way, does anyone know which Fw-190 ace shot down most P-51 and Spitfire?

Is it Heinz Bar?



#10 Che_Guevara

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 12:52 PM

no,

i think it was Josef "Pips" Priller, who shot down 68 Spits most of them with a Fw 190
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/priller.html

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/ this side has all lists of german aces of WW2



#11 kids

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 03:42 PM

How come it doesnt has bio. and record of Heinz Bar? I found him a very balance ace, who had a record of 221 planes: 79 in Europe, 96 in Russia, and 46 in Africa.

Other top aces seem to me simply that the reason they had unbelievable record of over 200 because most of their enemies were Soviet aircrafts, which enjoyed disadvangage against much superior German fighters.

#12 Che_Guevara

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 04:20 PM

quote:Other top aces seem to me simply that the reason they had unbelievable record of over 200 because most of their enemies were Soviet aircrafts, which enjoyed disadvangage against much superior German fighters.


hmm, yes you are right,
however, i think the main reson for the records of the german fighter pilots is, that they serve the whole war without a break (change of staffeln etc).."fly til u die"
Perhaps it´s seems that the german aces at the russian front had easy times, so many people come to conclusion that they weren´t so good to do the same on the western front, but i disagree.
Erich "Bubi" Hartmann ,346 russian and 6 american planes, shot down 6 P-51 on one day.




#13 Tony Williams

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 04:58 PM

As has been pointed out, both the Spitfire and the Fw 190 were developed throughout their lives, incluing versions for specific purposes (most notably the Fw 190 ground-attack types). So it would depend on which version of the Spitfire met which version of the 190.

When the Fw 190 first appeared it was clearly superior to the then-current Spit V, so the British had to rush an improved version into service. After that, there probably wasn't much to choose between the best versions of each.

The 'ultimate Spitfire' - the Mk XIV - was a better fighter than all of the Fw 190s except for the re-engined 190D, which was more-or-less its equal.

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk


#14 kids

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 12:17 AM

"Erich "Bubi" Hartmann ,346 russian and 6 american planes, shot down 6 P-51 on one day."

Whats kind of plane he uesed to fight P-51? But, man, 6 P-51 a day, thats amazing.


#15 Che_Guevara

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 12:28 AM

yep and one of his victims was the ace ralph hofer with 16.5 victories in the air and 14 on the ground including 5 He 177s !!!

#16 ickysdad

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 01:27 AM

quote:Originally posted by jairogut

quote:Originally posted by kids

The reason that I want to compare Spitfire and Fw-190 was that I have heard thousand times that people claim that Spitfire IX was superior to Fw-190. But I could not find any adequate to back up that claim. Beside Germans, like British, continued to upgrand their technology. So, in my opinons, I dont think Spitfire can outperformed Fw-190. Fw-190 still dominated the theature until the appearance of P-51.

I am literally tired of people saying that the P-51 changed all in the skies. I know it was a good a/c but it was not the best overall fighter (perphaps the best scort fighter), and it's praised versions (p51b to k) only were 1 year in service. The FW 190 was in service for four years and it basically didnt have any major modifications untin the inline version was produced. If you compare a p51k and a ta 152h, the Tank 152 is the best of them.


Who says a P-51H is inferior to a TA-152? There's also the P-51L that didn't make it into production and would have had even better performance wise than the P-51H. The P-51H probably would have been a little faster, probably better climbing, and due to the TA-152's long wingspan a far better roller. The P-51 series were always better divers than the FW-190/TA-152 series so I assume it's the case here also. In other words one has maybe slight advantages over the other to the point both are basically equal.

#17 kids

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 09:29 PM

Heinz Bär also had 3rd highest P-51 shot record in Germany, toal 10 of them. Since he used jet plane later on and had a record of 16 from his jet, he probably got all his P-51 from his jet (does anyone know how many P-51 and Spitfire he shot using non-jet plane? how many P-51 he got from his Fw-190?


By the way, did Heinz Bar always use number 13 on his plane? whats the reason behind that? and how come I saw one of his Fw-190 had 23 instead?

#18 Che_Guevara

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 09:41 PM

hey kid,

Heinz Bär used the No 13 often because it´s the 13th plane of his staffel.
Every plane has a number for better organisation and registration

Posted Image

sry don´t have this pic with english explications

#19 Lightning

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 10:28 PM

Hi kids,

I was just "kidding" you about being serious in asking this question. What I meant was that you could very well be inadvertently opening another 54-page Pandora's Box. (Looks like its already started.) Your thread is a good one!

Regards,
Lightning

#20 kids

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Posted 26 April 2005 - 12:33 AM

:D




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