Best Seaplane/Flying Boat

[Ricky]

Ok, slightly less glamourous than best fighter & best bomber
:)

My personal favourite would have to be the Short Sunderland - aka the 'Flying Porcupine' - partly because of the great service provided by them during the entire course of the war, but also because of the look of them... Beautiful...

Other contenders?
[?]

[jake431]

I'd say my favorite is the Catalina; very useful, especially those Black Cats in the Pacific!

[Ricky]

Ah yes, the catalina - very widely used by the USA, Britain, The USSR, and probably a couple of others...

A very useful plane, with it's long range compensating for its lack of speed. I seem to remember that it was considered verging on obsolete at the start of the war, but netherthless was produced in large numbers and served with distinction throughout - and indeed still serves today. Not many aircraft can claim that...

[^]

[simon]

The only other that springs to mind is the DC-3/C-47/Dakota...

OK, my personal vote goes to the Heinkel He115 which in its Air-Sea Rescue role saved untold pilots and aircrew, both Axis and Allied, and whose crews flying a slow, unmanouvrable, and effectively defenceless aircraft were themselves the targets of Allied fighters as a direct result of one of Churchill's more controvertial orders.

Production was stopped, then had to be restarted as the war progressed as it was increasingly realised that nothing then in the Luftwaffe's inventory could fill the role of the He115.

[Ricky]

And how about an honourable mention for the He115's British counterpart, the Supermarine Walrus. A highly ugly-looking 'pusher' biplane (designed by R J Mitchell, who desighned the Spitfire...) affectionately known as the 'shagbat'.
Slower and less manouverable than the He115, it was used for air/sea rescue, and as a spotter plane for capital ships (The Kriegsmarine used the Arado Ar 196). Like the Swordfish, it had a replacement that was essentially a cleaned-up version, but which never fully replaced it. In this case I think it was the Supermarine Seagull, or Sea Otter (or Sea-something, anyway!)

[:o)]

[simon]

How about also the two big Japanese flying boats, the Kawanishi Mavis and Emily, although similarly deficient in protection to almost every other Japanese plane they were at the time excellent aircraft.

You're right of course, many aircrew also owe their lives to the odd, stringy looking little Walrus.

[Tobz]

Shagbat - definately more manoeverable than a HE115! Pretty good rule of thumb is to check out the comparitive wing loadings. One of the reasons it was so useful in service was its ability to put down and get off in the tightest of locations. Good old Walrus - another example of a flying anachronism which was still a priceless asset in service. Incredible to think that something that looked to fragile was designed to be catapult launched!! Very versatile plane - amphibious to boot. Don't underestimate its value as a spotter during the Norwegian campaign either. I think Walruses also bagged a couple of U-boats during the war... and somewhere in the back of my memory I remember a story about some brave nutter using one to make a dive bombing attack at an ASI of 250mph - got a feeling it was our East during the early days of Japanese expansion. See if I can find our more on that...

Simes - later versions of the Emily weren't badly protected!!! It was considered a lethal adversary and allied pilots gave it a wide birth if possible: 'The H8K2 featured much improved defensive armament, replacing the 7.7 millimeter gun in the nose and each fuselage blister with a 20 millimeter cannon, side of the fuselage. Flexibly-mounted 7.7 millimeter guns were also added to each side of the fuselage and each side of the cockpit. This gave an impressive total defensive armament of five 20 millimeter cannon and five 7.7 millimeter guns.' ...Makes our own Flying Porcupine look very under armed! On the subject, apparently the Sunderland got its monika largely as a result of the secret 'extras' that crew equipped their aircraft with, over and obove its official armament. Anybody got any info on any of these covert modifications???

Churchill's decision to attack the rescue planes was certainly contraversial - all the more so as it was our pilots that had most to lose, as our rescue system was so underdeveloped, pilots early on had a much better chance of being picked up by the Germans than by our guys. Still, there was plenty of evidence that the German planes were surveying coastal defences and radar whilst they were in the area... stands to reason (we would have been doing the same the other way round) - so I guess it was the right choice to make under difficult circumstances...

[simon]

True, the Japanese did learn later on and began equipping their planes with not just improved guns (One version of the Betty I believe had entirely 20mm Cannon!), but it was more than just guns, even the Emily initially lacked armour and self-sealing tanks, although this was corrected later and you're right I had read that Allied pilots learnt a cautious respect for the Japanese Flying Boat.

In terms of armament though it is worth remembering that most of Emily's guns were hand held pintel mounted, whereas most of the Sunderland's were turretted, and the latter were far more effective as defensive weapons.

It is the overall combination of effective defensive weapons, armour protection and self-sealing tanks which makes a plane well protected or not.

I haven't got any info about the unofficial modifications to the Sunderland, but I did read about a USAAF B-17 Pilot in the Pacific who had a .30 cal Browning mounted in the cockpit, fixed and facing forwards so that he could have a go as well, don't know how effective it was though.

[Ricky]

Slightly off-topic (hey, I'm allowed!) how about more 'normal' planes that were converted into Seaplanes? Good examples of this are the Japanese conversion of the Zero (I think the Allies called it a 'Rufe', it was an attempt to provide increased fighter cover for small naval operations. As you would expect, adding a huge central float and two outriggers to a Zero seriously degraded its performance), the redoubtable Swordfish, and possibly most ambitiously, the Ju52.

[simon]

There was also a case where the reverse happened and Kawanishi removed the floats from their float-plane fighter to come up with the N1K "George", which became one of their best land fighters.

The idea of the Floatplane fighters were as you say to be able to provide aircover without needing to actually deploy carriers. I think some also carried extra fuel in their floats, extending their range considerably.

I don't think they were really intended to be able to face enemy fighters on equal terms but to provide Japanese Marines with some protection against enemy bombers. Their performance was usually so badly degraded though that in the case of the Rufe they were generally outflown over Guadalcanal by Marine and Navy Dauntlesses.

The concept was considered valid enough though that even the British early on experimented with floats on a Spitfire (Almost going full circle!), and I think a Hurricane too, but abandoned the experiment once it became apparent quite what a death trap either would have been in actual combat.

[Snick]

The Catalina.

Yes, she was considered outdated going into the war. She was also one of the few planes produced at the beginning and the end of the war.

Functionality? The PBY sank more enemy tonnage than any other plane. She was also the first plane to carry retro firing rockets for ASW (VP-63 "Mad-Catz" was the first squadron).

Beauty? She is one of the few seaplanes that is wider than she is deep. Curving lines and grace...

Flexibility? She was built in the USA (PBY-4,5,5A,6A) She was built by Vickers in Canada (CANSO) she was built by the Soviets (GST).
Her initial roles were long range recon and rescue. Then ASW and anti ship was added. She would sheppard flights of P38s to their targets in the Pacific, on occasion do pathfinding. She was in active service until about 1954 in the US. Longer and actually still in service in some other countries. Then converted to water bomber for fighting forest fires. (And this is an abbreviated list !!!)

It was a PBY that found the Battleship Bismark, a PBY that first saw the mini-sub at Pearl and directed the Wade to fire on it, then she dropped her own depth charges on it. In Kaneoheo Bay, PBYs were among the first destroyd on the raid on Pearl Harbour. It was a PBY that first saw the Japanese fleet at Midway. It was also a PBY that launched the first action against said fleet. A PBY was also the first casuality of that engagement. Dec 10, 1941 a PBY became the first naval plane to down an enemy aircraft in air to air combat after the war was officialy declared. (Dont know the date of the first one downed period...)

She was actually flown by both the US Navy and the US Army Air Corps.

If a zero got on the tail of a Black cat, they would drop to about 25' off the deck (remember, this is at night...) If the PBY hit a wave, no problem. If the Zero hit a wave... (you get the idea... ;) ).


And, if you were to say I am infatuated with this plane, you would be right. ;) I also learned a great deal about it while building it as an add on to a flight sim... ;) (No, not $Soft)

If you ever get the chance read "PBY/The Catalina Flying Boat" by Roscoe Creed.... Possibly the single best history of the plane....
~Snick~

[simon]

I was sure the Dauntless got the credit for destroying the most Axis shipping...

Anyone able to clarify this? It could be one of those occasions where the exact wording is important, for instance saying the Dauntless destroyed the greatest tonnage of warships is different from the greatest tonnage of ships in general.

As for the PBY, add to that a Catalina found the Japanese 1st Carrier Division at Midway, the results of which effectively put the Japanese on the defensive for the rest of the war.

[Paolo Tagliaferri]

quote:Originally posted by simon

I was sure the Dauntless got the credit for destroying the most Axis shipping...

I was also sure that Dauntless got that credit ... I searched on the web and it seems so ...

"Considered the most destructive air weapon of the U.S. Navy, the SBD sank over 300,000 tons of enemy ships, a greater tonnage of Japanese shipping than any other Allied aircraft during the war"

"At war’s end, the claim was made that the Dauntless SBD had sunk more enemy combatant tonnage than all other arms of the service combined"

"The SBD was one of the Navy's most important combat aircraft and sunk more tonnage of Japanese shipping than any other aircraft and was responsible for stopping the Imperial Japanese fleet at Midway"

Just search "SBD Dauntless tonnage" in google :)

[Snick]

There is no disputing the Dauntless ruled the Pacific. I will go back through my sources and check the exact statement. But remember the PBY fought on all fronts (including patrolling the American coast against submarines). Given my work schedule it may take a bit but I will either verify it (and quote the source), or apologise for a mis-statement...

[simon]

Apologees, you actually mentioned Midway!

In any case, the Catalina only found the Japanese Carrier task Force, the first attack was carried out by 6 Navy Avengers and 4 Army Marauders of the Midway air group. Catalina's did attack the Japanese, but it was not the carrier group they attacked, but the following troop ships which were intended to actually invade Midway once the island's defences were subdued by the Vals, Kates and Zeroes of the Kaga, Akagi, Hiryu and Soryu.

To their credit the Catalinas actually did better than all the other Navy and Army torpedo bombers put together, even hampered by night and poor torpedoes they managed to hit and damage a Japanese troop transport.

[Snick]

The invasion force was found by PBY VP-44.
Actually after re-reading the account, the B17s had first crack at the (invasion) fleet from 10,000' but neither side suffered casualitys or damage!!! Then, as darkness set in, 4 PBYs were sent out to continue harassing the fleet. This was to be the first time that torpedos were ever launched from the PBY. Only one torpedo found its target, the tanker Akebono Maru. The PBY that launched the torp was the only PBY that didnt make it back to base (they took damage but not enought to bring them down but ran out of fuel). The crew was rescued 3 days later.

PBY VP-23 piloted by Lt Ady found the carrier fleet the next day. It was after this that the 6 TBFs the carrier fleet (they were the first to attck this fleet.)

Data from "PBY/The Catalina Flying Boat" by Roscoe Creed.

[simon]

The B-17s were completely useless at Midway, the only thing they achieved was to damage a USN Submarine which they bombed in error, and claimed afterwards they'd sank a Battleship.

The TBFs and B-26s actually managed to keep together during the outbound journey to the Japanese Carriers, and attacked close enough together for the B-26s to see Nagumo's Zeroes shoot down all but one of the attacking Avengers. Technically, yes, the TBFs attacked first, but there wasn't much in it at all, which is why I refer to them as attacking together (For all practical purposes they did).

[Steve Rocket Scientist]

I think I'd have to side with Simon on this one. On the basis of speed(290 mph), power(4x1850 hp Kasei radials), armament, beautifully clean lines and structural strength, I'd have to choose the Kawanishi H8K2(model 22), known under the codename "Emily".

When I was a schoolboy, the school ran a film which had been edited from gun camera footage taken at the Battle of the Philipine Sea. It included a sequence where an Emily was riddled and then flamed by a cordon of Hellcats.

The Emily was a lot tougher than most Japanese bombers, but it was not equal to the punishment that US Navy and Marine Corps pilots were dishing out.

I gather that it had a 4,000-watt HF radio set that was very good for the era. Emilys were often fitted with ASV radar, but Japanese ASV radar was unreliable and performed poorly. In addition, Japanese radar operators were not adequately trained.

[simon]

Sorry Corsarius, Ricky already beat you to this one by quite a bit!

[PMN1]

The Martin Mariner had extended engine nacelles that housed the weapons bays, could extended nacelles have been fitted to the Sunderland/Seaford to enable them to carry weapons or more fuel in them.

From what I can gather, not much was done about the wing on the Sunderland when it became the Seaford, would it have been possible to give the Seaford an extended wing housing more fuel or weapons cells?

How about retractable wing floats as used in some of the later R.5/39 proposals?

[Che_Guevara]

Best Seaplane might be the one and only Arado Ar 196 ;)

[PMN1]

From British Secret Projects

By 4th December (1939) the Air Staff had proposed some modifications to produce a Mk.II Sunderland with an extra 500gal (2,273 lit) of internal fuel, changes to the hull forebody, redesigned bomb gear. Folding wingtip floats (which increased cruise speed by 4mph and added a little range and twin fins to reduce the tendency to swing on take off

[PMN1]

The Sunderland carried its bombload inside the hull and the weapons were winched out prior to making the attack which the later R.5/39 Specification designs had their weapons load in wing cells (between 3 and 8 in each wing depending on the design).

What advantage did that give over the Sunderland's layout?

[Ricky]

I suppose the advantage is that weapons were immediately available, and the winch couldn't break down!

The disadvantage is that your weapon load is limited to the size of the cells.

[PMN1]

I suppose the advantage is that weapons were immediately available, and the winch couldn't break down!

The disadvantage is that your weapon load is limited to the size of the cells.

Another possible disadvantage is the bomb cells also take up space in the wings that fuel tanks could use - does anyone know if the Consolidated Coronado carried any fuel inside the fuselage or if it was all wing housed?

The British R.5/39 could carry 250lb or 500lb while the Coronado could apparently carry 1,000lb as could the engine nacelle weapons bays on the Mariner.

[ChrisMcD]

What about the Blackburn B20

Over 300mph and a 2,000lb bomb load!

http://freespace.virgin.net/john.dell/blackburn_b20.htm

OK it never made the big time, but it was a great idea.

[merlin]

My choice would be:

1) Japan - Emily

2) US - Catalina

3) UK - Sunderland (though it could have been second if instead of the Stirling being built Shorts were told to design a longer range version with Hercules engines).

4) Germany - Dornier Do24, like the Catalina many still used years after the war.

[Sid447]

I'll vote for the Catalina,

and always wish they put a couple of R-2800s on it!