A Europe only war???

[PMN1]

This is a thread started by Brad Smith on a number of other boards...

The Pacific War breaks out in December, 1937, between the US and Japan, after the Panay incident (China and the Philippine Commonwealth are the only other players); after a year of mobilization (1938) the US begins a Central Pacific counter-offensive, and the war plays out according to the expectations of Plan Orange, with a Japanese surrender in Tokyo Bay in December, 1941 - four years to the day, almost, after it began.

Meantime, the European war begins as historical; the British Commonwealth & Empire benefit from there being no Japanese threat, but US policy on aid to the Allies is cash and carry - no Lend-Lease, no destroyers for bases deal, etc.

After the Japanese surrender, the US is busy with the occupation, establishing the ROK, propping up the ROC, etc. - it is committed to Hemispheric Defense, thus maintaining the Western Atlantic as a sanctuary for Allied shipping, but does not occupy Iceland and does not escort the North Atlantic convoys.

So, it is Jan. 1, 1942 - are the fortunes of the Russo-British (Anglo-Russians?) and their various minor allies, and the Germans (and their various allies, from Italy on down) more or less as they were historically?

What strategies, if any, are available to the various combatants to try and bring the war to a successful (in their eyes) conclusion?

How long could it go on? How long could the British war economy hold out? The German? The Russian? What political and diplomatic changes do all sides need to consider if the US and Japan are not in the picture?

http://p216.ezboard.com/fwarships1discussionboardsfrm1.showMessage?topicID =7201.topic

http://p069.ezboard.com/falltheworldsbattlecruisersfrm1.showMessage?topicI D=1899.topic

any comments (Ickysdad will recognise the toppic)

[curmudgeon]

quote:Originally posted by PMN1

This is a thread started by Brad Smith on a number of other boards...

The Pacific War breaks out in December, 1937, between the US and Japan, after the Panay incident (China and the Philippine Commonwealth are the only other players); after a year of mobilization (1938) the US begins a Central Pacific counter-offensive, and the war plays out according to the expectations of Plan Orange, with a Japanese surrender in Tokyo Bay in December, 1941 - four years to the day, almost, after it began.

Meantime, the European war begins as historical; the British Commonwealth & Empire benefit from there being no Japanese threat, but US policy on aid to the Allies is cash and carry - no Lend-Lease, no destroyers for bases deal, etc.

After the Japanese surrender, the US is busy with the occupation, establishing the ROK, propping up the ROC, etc. - it is committed to Hemispheric Defense, thus maintaining the Western Atlantic as a sanctuary for Allied shipping, but does not occupy Iceland and does not escort the North Atlantic convoys.

So, it is Jan. 1, 1942 - are the fortunes of the Russo-British (Anglo-Russians?) and their various minor allies, and the Germans (and their various allies, from Italy on down) more or less as they were historically?

What strategies, if any, are available to the various combatants to try and bring the war to a successful (in their eyes) conclusion?

How long could it go on? How long could the British war economy hold out? The German? The Russian? What political and diplomatic changes do all sides need to consider if the US and Japan are not in the picture?

http://p216.ezboard.com/fwarships1discussionboardsfrm1.showMessage?topicID =7201.topic

http://p069.ezboard.com/falltheworldsbattlecruisersfrm1.showMessage?topicI D=1899.topic

any comments (Ickysdad will recognise the toppic)


Churchill displays some strategy and curbs his generals aiming to fight a long war.

Tube Alloys having solved the key problems of uranium enrichment by diffusion using perforated nickel plates begins a super-secret project at Chalk River Canada.

By mid 1946 the Germans are comfortable within a defensive line running through western Russia, short of Moscow and through western Europe. And enjoying the fruits of the conquests. Germany is running a semi-peacetime economy and has not developed V-1 or V-2, working towards perfection rather than having these devices ready Thursday. The middle east is held by a 'British' force (Australia, New Zealand and the 'martial races' of India).

At 00:00 on 1 January 1947 a Barnes Wallis 'Victory' bomber drops a uranium implosion device (Tuck was British) on Berlin. At 00:30 a similar device is dropped on Hamburg, at 00:45 a major city in the Ruhr is demolished. On 2 January two further German cities are attacked. Churchill calls for surrender before overwhelming force is unleashed. On 3 January three cities are demolished ...

Does Germany sink into catatonic shock and is the British gamble lost, or do German forces surrender in the face of apparently inevitable destruction?

[DoBravery]

The US would still go to war based on leads that Germany is attempting to develop WMD's (Weapons of Mass Destruction).

Russian soldiers would find Hitler in a small hole with a MP 40 Schmeisser sub-machine gun and a few thousand Marks.

;)

[DoBravery]

More seriously. . .

With US aid and volunteer pilots (mercenaries?), the UK develops the RAF into a massive bombing force. Without the Japanese threat, Stalin has a few hundred thousand more troops at his disposal, and they are disposed of because a 2nd front does not open up until Germany is already defeated. Russia still beats Germany, but at enormous costs to both sides in human life. Russia is reluctant to leave parts of France (but eventually does). The Denmark, Netherlands, Low countries remain Soviet satellites, and the Maginot Line becomes the new Iron Curtain.

France although democratic, is still Soviet friendly (it has to be). The US and China have stronger relations due to early US influence and Soviet threat (Korea never spits), but Vietnam (more or less peacefully) still becomes Communist with strong French and Russian ties.

The Middle East is still crazy.

[Ricky]

I wonder if China would actually become Communist...
Mao won a lot of support with the 'only my forces are effectively fighting the Japanese' line.

[PMN1]

quote:Originally posted by curmudgeon


Churchill displays some strategy and curbs his generals aiming to fight a long war.

Tube Alloys having solved the key problems of uranium enrichment by diffusion using perforated nickel plates begins a super-secret project at Chalk River Canada.

By mid 1946 the Germans are comfortable within a defensive line running through western Russia, short of Moscow and through western Europe. And enjoying the fruits of the conquests. Germany is running a semi-peacetime economy and has not developed V-1 or V-2, working towards perfection rather than having these devices ready Thursday. The middle east is held by a 'British' force (Australia, New Zealand and the 'martial races' of India).

At 00:00 on 1 January 1947 a Barnes Wallis 'Victory' bomber drops a uranium implosion device (Tuck was British) on Berlin. At 00:30 a similar device is dropped on Hamburg, at 00:45 a major city in the Ruhr is demolished. On 2 January two further German cities are attacked. Churchill calls for surrender before overwhelming force is unleashed. On 3 January three cities are demolished ...

Does Germany sink into catatonic shock and is the British gamble lost, or do German forces surrender in the face of apparently inevitable destruction?



A lot of the replies to date on the other boards have brought up the Atom bomb....

....I dont think anyone has come up with the idea that Churchill might be less reckless though...

[i16stealth]

In the situation when Japan is defeated the USSR could move all its troops from Eastern borders to the west. It can also continue to receive help from UK without land-lease. I think that Moscow would stand in any way, even without US help.

[Groggy]

quote:Originally posted by curmudgeon

quote:Originally posted by PMN1

This is a thread started by Brad Smith on a number of other boards...

The Pacific War breaks out in December, 1937, between the US and Japan, after the Panay incident (China and the Philippine Commonwealth are the only other players); after a year of mobilization (1938) the US begins a Central Pacific counter-offensive, and the war plays out according to the expectations of Plan Orange, with a Japanese surrender in Tokyo Bay in December, 1941 - four years to the day, almost, after it began.

Meantime, the European war begins as historical; the British Commonwealth & Empire benefit from there being no Japanese threat, but US policy on aid to the Allies is cash and carry - no Lend-Lease, no destroyers for bases deal, etc.

After the Japanese surrender, the US is busy with the occupation, establishing the ROK, propping up the ROC, etc. - it is committed to Hemispheric Defense, thus maintaining the Western Atlantic as a sanctuary for Allied shipping, but does not occupy Iceland and does not escort the North Atlantic convoys.

So, it is Jan. 1, 1942 - are the fortunes of the Russo-British (Anglo-Russians?) and their various minor allies, and the Germans (and their various allies, from Italy on down) more or less as they were historically?

What strategies, if any, are available to the various combatants to try and bring the war to a successful (in their eyes) conclusion?

How long could it go on? How long could the British war economy hold out? The German? The Russian? What political and diplomatic changes do all sides need to consider if the US and Japan are not in the picture?

http://p216.ezboard.com/fwarships1discussionboardsfrm1.showMessage?topicID =7201.topic

http://p069.ezboard.com/falltheworldsbattlecruisersfrm1.showMessage?topicI D=1899.topic

any comments (Ickysdad will recognise the toppic)


Churchill displays some strategy and curbs his generals aiming to fight a long war.

Tube Alloys having solved the key problems of uranium enrichment by diffusion using perforated nickel plates begins a super-secret project at Chalk River Canada.

By mid 1946 the Germans are comfortable within a defensive line running through western Russia, short of Moscow and through western Europe. And enjoying the fruits of the conquests. Germany is running a semi-peacetime economy and has not developed V-1 or V-2, working towards perfection rather than having these devices ready Thursday. The middle east is held by a 'British' force (Australia, New Zealand and the 'martial races' of India).

At 00:00 on 1 January 1947 a Barnes Wallis 'Victory' bomber drops a uranium implosion device (Tuck was British) on Berlin. At 00:30 a similar device is dropped on Hamburg, at 00:45 a major city in the Ruhr is demolished. On 2 January two further German cities are attacked. Churchill calls for surrender before overwhelming force is unleashed. On 3 January three cities are demolished ...

Does Germany sink into catatonic shock and is the British gamble lost, or do German forces surrender in the face of apparently inevitable destruction?



The Atomic bomb was widely reported in the British Press in 1939 with for example front page headlines in the Daily Express in August 1939.
The first aircraft to be modified to take proposed atomic bombs were He 177s in 1942.
Japanese Bomb was a distinct possibility by about 1947, 48. and would have predated American developments assuming that is no British prodding to develop the weapon.
Remember that the partition of Poland meant that the French, British were actively planning to bomb the oil fields in southern Russia in 1940.
Hitler’s plan Z aimed for naval parity with the Royal Navy by 1945/46

[PMN1]

quote:Originally posted by i16stealth

In the situation when Japan is defeated the USSR could move all its troops from Eastern borders to the west. It can also continue to receive help from UK without land-lease. I think that Moscow would stand in any way, even without US help.




The Japanese threat may be gone but what would Stalin think about fully armed combat trained US forces on his doorstep?

As for Moscow holding out, I think it depends on how the Nazis act - if they act as they did in the OTL then yes Soviet resistance would build and Moscow could be held. If however, in this alternate histiry, they act smart and only turn on the Ukranians etc AFTER they have secured the parts of the SU they want then all bets are off.

[curmudgeon]

quote:Originally posted by PMN1

quote:Originally posted by i16stealth

In the situation when Japan is defeated the USSR could move all its troops from Eastern borders to the west. It can also continue to receive help from UK without land-lease. I think that Moscow would stand in any way, even without US help.




The Japanese threat may be gone but what would Stalin think about fully armed combat trained US forces on his doorstep?

As for Moscow holding out, I think it depends on how the Nazis act - if they act as they did in the OTL then yes Soviet resistance would build and Moscow could be held. If however, in this alternate histiry, they act smart and only turn on the Ukranians etc AFTER they have secured the parts of the SU they want then all bets are off.


At one time I played a bunch of 'Strategy and Tactics' games. Presuming the designers got their history right Hitler attacks the USSR because if he doesn't the USSR is ready by the mid 40s to attack Germany with overwhelming force. The famous Low cartoon 'Rendezvous' drawn after the Polish campaign of 1939 with Hitler and Stalin politely addressing each other with caps raised comes to mind - the caption reads: Hitler to Stalin: 'The scum of the earth I believe?' and Stalin says to Hitler 'The bloody assassin of the workers, I presume?' sums up the situation perfectly.

[i16stealth]

The position that Stalin and Hitler were the best friends in 1939 is completely wrong.

[curmudgeon]

quote:Originally posted by i16stealth

The position that Stalin and Hitler were the best friends in 1939 is completely wrong.


That is what Low was saying in his cartoon. They were shuffling about getting their footing. Stalin desperately didn't want war in 1941, but 1942 with T-34s and lots of the new LaGG and MiG fighters ... USSR policy would have been a lot less placatory ... OTOH I'm uncertain of their capacity to use the material efectively.