Suicide vs Deathtrap (and obscure vs topic)

[Corsarius]

so.... battle of the silly things.... *ahem* suicide planes...

http://jpcolliat.free.fr/trident/new/fi103r_01.jpg

Contestant #1! The Fi 103 Reichenberg.. Why is the pilot wearing a life jacket?

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Museum/Palam/Okha-1.jpg

Contestant #2! The Yokosuka MXY7 Ohka 11

http://bf1936.bf1942files.com/imagenes/republican.jpg

Contestant #3! The Polikapov I-16 'ramming rata'!

Can anyone think of anything else that I might have missed, or shall we discuss these three?

[Mark J]

Wasn't the piloted 'doodlebug' used to check the flying capabilities of later flying bombs?
I didn't think the Luftwaffe had plans for a suicide aircraft.

The Yokosuka, is that the 'cherry blossum' rocket powered machine first used at Okinawa? If it is then they were too fast for conventional fighters but were vunerable while being carried by the 'parent' or carry aircraft.

I believe the I-16's made good 'ramming' planes simply because of their inherint strengh, there were lots of them and the desperite situation called for these desperite measures. I also understand, the planes often came away with little damage and that many were repaired again for further combat. Many of the pilots survived as well so I'm not sure the I-16 can be included as a 'suicide' plane.

cheers

[GregP]

1) Yokosuka D4Y suicide variant. It was singl-seat, with the rear cockpit fared over.

2) Nakajima Ki-115b suicide plane. 1,130 hp Nakajima radial, fixed gear. Just a basic plane made for Kamakaze attacks.

3) Yokosuka MXY-7 Ohka. We sometimes call it a Bakka Bomb. A rocket Kamakaze aitcraft.

Then there are the not-so-obvious suicide planes that sneak up on you, like:

4) Kalinin K-7. 1 built, 1 crashed, killing all aboard. Stalin later shot the designer, so it really WAS a deadly aircraft.

5) Bachem Natter. Not supposed to be a suicide aircraft, but that didn’t stop the Natter.

6) LWZ Zubr. Airframe life of 1 mission, and it had better be a short one.

[Double T]

I thought the Luftwaffe had 'Ramjaeger' units flying modified--or not?--Fw190 aircraft. (The Werewolves?...)
Most every airframe in the Japanese inventory was a 'suicide' plane. Those boys just couldn't wait to 'die-for-the-emperor.' Any Japanese entry gets my vote.
I think the Brewster Buffalo would qualify in early pacific theatre ops. Any pilot assigned to a Buffalo wrote his last will before taking-off. They were as near a suicidal-plane as we had in the inventory. Anyone that got back home alive after combat with the Japanese was truly lucky.

Tim

[Romantic Technofreak]

quote:
Mark J wrote:
Wasn't the piloted 'doodlebug' used to check the flying capabilities of later flying bombs?
I didn't think the Luftwaffe had plans for a suicide aircraft.


Nope, Mark. Reichenberg was intended as suicide weapon. But while the Okha was a feasible, and partly successful concept, the Reichenberg wasn´t usable. The pulsating action of its thrust tube drive drove the pilot crazy.


quote:Corsarius wrote:
Why is the pilot wearing a life jacket?


I think it´s better to fish the pilot of an emergency-water-landed Reichenberg out of the North Sea than to let him drown.

quote:
Double T wrote:
I thought the Luftwaffe had 'Ramjaeger' units flying modified--or not?--Fw190 aircraft.

That´s true. But this was a voluntary action. Pilots could ram a bomber if they saw no other chance to bring it down. Some did - and some of those even survived, being able to bail out or to do an emergency landing.


quote:
Double T wrote:
The Werewolves?

As much as I know, "Werewolf" was a designation only for "common" Nazi partisans, not for an aerial unit.

quote:
Double T wrote:
Most every airframe in the Japanese inventory was a 'suicide' plane. Any Japanese entry gets my vote.


You can convert any aircraft into a suicide plane. In WWII, only the Japanese did that.

quote:Double T wrote:
Those boys just couldn't wait to die-for-the-emperor.


Often it is forgotten that many were forced and refused to execute the order. They returned to base or emergency-landed somewhere. Courageously, they faced the fact that they had lost their honour. Anyway, they weren´t shot and so kept their lives.

I think ramming tactics were used more frequently than known. During the BoB, there were especially Hurricane pilots reported consciously driving their plane into a German bomber. And, although I can´t quote that, I am convinced even Italian and US pilots did that from time to time.

[ChrisMcD]

If we are talking about impressive suicide, why not the Sanger Brandt Orbital bomber?

http://modelingmadness.com/scotts/axis/sangerbt.jpg[img]

[Romantic Technofreak]

You should not judge this project too hard, Chris. Maybe in 30 years this concept is realized as passenger plane!

[Corsarius]

quote:Originally posted by Double T

I thought the Luftwaffe had 'Ramjaeger' units flying modified--or not?--Fw190 aircraft.

Yes they did, I believe. I think in a similar situation to the I-16 it was to do with the inherent strength of the aircraft.

quote:Most every airframe in the Japanese inventory was a 'suicide' plane. Those boys just couldn't wait to 'die-for-the-emperor.'

Saburo Sakai refused his Kamikazie mission and brought his wingmen home, to boot. He also noted that at least one suicide 'Kate' from the flight he was escorting at the time also made it back to another airfield, so it's not like everyone was insane. They were just desperate. In his book, 'Samurai', Sakai notes that while everyone was willing to die for the emperor, not everyone was willing to die on a fool's errand.

quote:I think the Brewster Buffalo would qualify in early pacific theatre ops. Any pilot assigned to a Buffalo wrote his last will before taking-off. They were as near a suicidal-plane as we had in the inventory. Anyone that got back home alive after combat with the Japanese was truly lucky.

When we built and tested the CA-12 fighter, it was test-flown against a lightened Buffalo with no ammo, which had a similar performance to the Zero in this state. The Brewster product was quite a good plane, as the early models used by the Finns showed (vs the red air force, the luftwaffe, and the red air force again!). It was the later US-used models that had all the 'extra features' crammed onto it that made it into such an unweildy deathtrap.

[Corsarius]

quote:6) LWZ Zubr. Airframe life of 1 mission, and it had better be a short one.



You just HAD to sneak it in there, didn't you? lol.

[Wuzak]

quote:Originally posted by Romantic Technofreak
[brI think ramming tactics were used more frequently than known. During the BoB, there were especially Hurricane pilots reported consciously driving their plane into a German bomber. And, although I can´t quote that, I am convinced even Italian and US pilots did that from time to time.


Just finished watching a short series called Spitfire Ace, which discussed the Battle of Britain, but also followed a pilot, selected from four, doing the equivalent training as a BoB pilot (ie 9 hours).

In the last episode the raids of September 15th were discussed, as well as some other bits and pieces. One incident mentioned was when a Spitfire pilot (IIRC) chased a Do17 over London, but not having any remaining ammo he could not shoot it down. Instead he decided to try and damage the tailplane by ramming his wing into it, and ended up slicing the whole tail off.

The falling Dornier was captured on film. You could see it crash, followed shortly after by the tail section, which fluttered down.

The Spitfire pilot had to bail out too, IIRC.

[simon]

Reichenberg was intended as suicide weapon. But while the Okha was a feasible, and partly successful concept, the Reichenberg wasn´t usable. The pulsating action of its thrust tube drive drove the pilot crazy.

And this would be a problem for the long-term health of a suicide plane pilot because...?

[Ricky]

I always thought that the piloted doodlebug was designed so that the pilot could get out (via the floor, IIRC).

Japanese ramming planes (vs B-29s) were not suicide missions - they were supposed to simply knock off vulnerable bits (like rear wings) then land as best they could. Many actually did so.

[Romantic Technofreak]

quote:
Simon wrote:
a problem for the long-term health

For the short-term health. It was an effect like somebody grips your neck and shakes your head. Pilots soon became so dizzy that they were unable to complete their tasks. So the project had to be dropped.

quote:
Ricky wrote:
I always thought that the piloted doodlebug was designed so that the pilot could get out (via the floor, IIRC).

I don´t know exactly, I only think I have read that the recruiting measures for the pilots expressedly sought volunteers for suicidal actions - and there was no lack of applicants!
I didn´t really confess myself with that theme, because for me suicidal warfare is something especially immoral and repulsive, so I wasn´t interested.

[Trexx]

quote:Originally posted by Double T

I thought the Luftwaffe had 'Ramjaeger' units flying modified--or not?--Fw190 aircraft. (The Werewolves?...)
Most every airframe in the Japanese inventory was a 'suicide' plane. Those boys just couldn't wait to 'die-for-the-emperor.' Any Japanese entry gets my vote.
I think the Brewster Buffalo would qualify in early pacific theatre ops. Any pilot assigned to a Buffalo wrote his last will before taking-off. They were as near a suicidal-plane as we had in the inventory. Anyone that got back home alive after combat with the Japanese was truly lucky.

Tim


The Finns loved them. Their fighter pilots liked the ability to fly with the cockpit canopy in the open position. I suppose they were willing to put up with a few short comings to feel the breeze...

[Trexx]

Here's my entry into the fray:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-11/897605/XP-79_B.jpg

It's a real turkey from a genious airplane designer.
Northrop's "XP-79 Flying Ram" built with a reinforced leading wing edge so it could 'slice' enemy planes into chunks. It was to be rocket powered, but turbojets were used instead because of developmental troubles. The entire concept is a wasteful use of man and materials (imo). It is however, the first American rocket plane to fly. It's lethal maiden flight killed it's test pilot and the project.