What ifs and why nots

[Double T]

The Fw190 airframe was able to utilize both radial and in-line engines.
In comparison, the Bf109 was exclusively powered by an in-line engine.

Was the Bf 109 ever seen with a BMW radial-engine bolted to it's nose?

If not, why didn't the Germans cease production of the 109 in favor of the Focke Wulf 190?

Would the 190 have been a better use of the Daimler-Benz inline than the '109?

Was it a question of pure performance potential... or politics and favoritism that dictated the continued production of the Bf109?

Tim

[Kutscha]

Yes the 109 was tried with a radial engine.

It was the Bf109 V21, WNr 1779, D-IFKQ and used initially a P&W Twin Wasp. The date the a/c first flew is not known but Dr. Wurster and Fritz Wendal did fly the a/c on Aug 18 1939. Wendal made the first flight in a BMW 801 powered 109 in Sept. 1940.

Interestingly, the rear fuselage was cut down and a bubble type sliding canopy was installed.

Picture on Greg's favorite site, ;) http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/bf-109-x-2713.html

[Romantic Technofreak]

Test results about the Bf 109 with radial engine were positive (from my book about Willy Messerschmitt). The 109 was not dropped, because the inline engine showed better high altitude results than the radial one. It surely was more simple to keep the 109 in production than to adapt the 190 to a special high-altitude version with inline engine during the first half of the war.

Germany was the only major war-waging nation that went into combat with only one frontline fighter type. So, the FW 190 came into production with the argument of having "a second iron in the fire". Results showed that this consideration was right.

IMHO, if you exaggerate the thougt to limit the number of frontline types you get to the point of the "sole aircraft for every purpose", and that's nonsense. That's why I prefer to be romantic.

Regards, RT

[Sid447]

Would the 190 have been a better use of the Daimler-Benz inline than the '109?
Tim

The FW 190D used a Junkers Jumo, did it not?

[Double T]

Sid:
Yes, that is correct. Kurt Tank was never able to appropriate the DB powerplants that went to 109s, 110s, 210-410s. I'm thinking Willi Messerschmidt "knew where the bodies were buried" in Berlin eh?
Still, the 190 "Dora' was a real threat with the Junkers Jumo inline.

RoTech:
I agree with you in spirit. Just not convinced the Bf109 was as good or as adaptable as the vaunted Fw190.
(big smile)
Tim

[Kutscha]

The FW 190D used a Junkers Jumo, did it not?

Yes, and the Ta152H, but Tank wanted to use the DB603. Early development a/c were fitted with both the DB603 and Jumo213 engines.

Tank finally got to use the DB603 in the Ta152C.

[GregP]

I'm very curious about the supporters of the Ta-152 series.

A total of about 150 of all varities were made and only about 67 made it into squadron service. Even with mature aircraft of the piston engine variety of fighters, and the Ta-152 was FAR from mature, about half of the aircraft are either in maintenance or scheduled for maintenace soon, leaving about half plus or minus a few for combat at any one time.

Many times, the "half" is actually less when you take into account for training, broken planes, aircraft in transit, etc.

So, let's assume a few things. Half of 67 is about 34 aircraft. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt and say they might have had 40 in service shape at SOME time.

Split them out among maybe three airfields and we have maybe 13 planes at each one. I wonder how they could possibly affect the war, or even that anyone had time for a complete familiarization course in one, or could definitively test it against enemy aircraft in a side-by-side situation?

Most of the pilots who actually FLEW them had only experience with their own hardware, and they mostly flew against less-experienced enemy pilots since only the experienced GOT the Ta-152's. It would be VERY interesting to put two very experienced pilots against one another in different mounts (non-lethal combat), and then have them land, swap planes, and repeat the fight. My bet is opinions would change drastically, depending on who could wring what performance out of the unfamiliar mount.

[Kutscha]

There is more to an aircraft than just its war record Greg. ;)

As to Ta152 production, the 69 in in the graphics below is close to the sum of the production WKn (from the WNr block 150001 to 150169) with 43 built and Versuch (sp??) with 28 built.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-12/1114844/Fw190-production-1.jpg

Maybe RT would be kind enough to translate the text from an unknown source.

Fred McIntosh of Watson's Wizards( ex 56th FG) thought it was everything it was cracked up to be. He flew 150 FE-112.

[ChrisMcD]

Fred McIntosh of Watson's Wizards( ex 56th FG) thought it was everything it was cracked up to be. He flew 150 FE-112.

Winkle Brown was a fan as well.

Tank had a prejudice against Jumo engines and pushed the DB 603 version hard before giving up and going for the Jumo 213.

Mind you the post war version of the Me 109 with the Jumo 211 had a poor reputation, but I have a feeling that this was because it was fitted with accessories intended for the He 111 ie paddle bladed props and had a much poorer power to weight ratio

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avia_S-199

Which just goes to show how much better the Jumo 213 was than the Jumo 211, so perhaps Tank was not aware of the improvements that Junkers had achieved

[Romantic Technofreak]

Sorry, I am a bit late.

Kutscha's text says the following:

Production overview - Fw 190 variants


Type - number - number - sum
Literature - counting


The present list is the result of the approximate contemporary provable production numbers of Fw 190 A, Fw 190 "Dora" and Ta 152 H, which are confronted here with the until now established figures in literature.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(This page which is referred to is not seen, RT)
The document seen aside shows an insight in the production facilities of Fw 190 and Ta 152. After the decentralization of the big production factories, here those firms are told, whose single sub-assemblies were directed further to the so-called "final-assembly-facilities". Remarkable is that FW 190 D-11 is never mentioned, D-12 is only once.


Regards, RT

[Kutscha]

Thanks for the translation RT. :)

Chris, I don't think Tank had any real prejudice against the Jumo. In May 1942, the RLM put out a request for a Spezial Hohenjager and the DB 603 had better high altitude performance capabilities than did the Jumo, at the time.

[ChrisMcD]

Hi Kutscha,

You are probably right. I cannot find the reference, but it was a long time ago and to the effect that Focke Wulf spent a lot of time on the 190 B and C that could have been better spent on the D.

IIRC the 603 was a much bigger engine with not much more power, so you do wonder why both FW and Messerschmidt both spent so much time and effort on it (ie Me 109 G)

Once again, I have a recollection that the Jumo 213 took a while to really show it's potential, so that may have been the reason. Also, were the 'middle' Jumos (ie 211) not seen as being very much a bomber engine with poor throttle response?

And I have a feeling that the early 213's had vibration problems and took a while to show their real potential.

You get the feeling that German engine development went a bit 'funny' in 41-43. Was this all because of preoccupation with the hyper engines like the Jumo 222?

Regards Chris McD

[Kutscha]

Chris, the 109G, and K, used the DB605 engine.

The DB601 was similar in size, weight and power to the Jumo 211. At that time it would seem that the DB was selected for fighters and the Jumo for bombers, which makes sense (logistics). I also have a feeling that there was some politicking involved.

Specifications (DB 601Aa)

Data from [1]
General characteristics

* Type: Twelve-cylinder liquid-cooled supercharged 60° inverted Vee aircraft piston engine
* Bore: 150 mm (5.91 in)
* Stroke: 160 mm (6.30 in)
* Displacement: 33.93 L (2,070.5 in³)
* Length: 1,722 mm (68 in)
* Dry weight: 590 kg (1,320 lb)

Components

* Valvetrain: Two intake and two sodium-cooled exhaust valves per cylinder actuated via a single overhead camshaft per cylinder block.
* Supercharger: Gear-driven single-speed centrifugal type supercharger
* Fuel system: Fuel injection
* Oil system: Dry sump with one pressure and two scavenge pumps
* Cooling system: Liquid-cooled

Performance

* Power output:
o 865 kW (1,175 PS or 1,159 hp) at 2,500 rpm for takeoff (BMEP 1.22 MPa (177.2 psi))
o 787 kW (1,070 PS or 1,050 hp) at 2,400 rpm at 3,700 m (12,140 ft) (BMEP 1.08 MPa (156.7 psi))
* Specific power: 25.52 kW/l (0.56 hp/in³)
* Compression ratio: 6.9:1
* Specific fuel consumption: 270 g/(kW·h) (0.44 lb/(hp·h))
* Power-to-weight ratio: 1.47 kW/kg (0.89 hp/lb)

Specifications (Jumo 211 C)
Jumo 211F

Data from [1]
General characteristics

* Type: Twelve-cylinder supercharged liquid-cooled 60-degree inverted V piston aircraft engine
* Bore: 150 mm (5.91 in)
* Stroke: 165 mm (6.5 in)
* Displacement: 34.99 l (2,135.2 in³)
* Length: 1,768 mm (69.61 in)
* Width: 804 mm (31.65 in)
* Height: 1,050 mm (41.34 in)
* Dry weight: 585 kg (1,290 lb)

Components

* Valvetrain: Overhead camshafts
* Supercharger: Two-speed centrifugal type supercharger with automatic boost control
* Fuel system: Carburetor
* Fuel type: 87 octane rating gasoline
* Cooling system: Liquid-cooled, ethylene glycol
* Reduction gear: Spur, 1.55:1

Performance

* Power output:
o 736 kW (1,000 PS or 986 hp) at 2,200 rpm for takeoff
o 754 kW (1,025 PS or 1,011 hp) at 2,200 rpm at 1,710 m (5,610 ft), first supercharger speed (bmep = 172.5psi)
o 718 kW (975 PS or 962 hp) at 2,200 rpm at 4,200 m (13,780 ft), second supercharger speed
* Specific power: 21.54 kW/l (0.47 hp/in³)
* Compression ratio: 6.5:1
* Specific fuel consumption: 322-335 g/(kW•h) (0.53-0.55 lb/(hp•h))
* Oil consumption: 11-16 g/(kW•h) (0.28-0.42 oz/(hp•h))
* Power-to-weight ratio: 1.29 kW/kg (0.78 hp/lb)

Wiki

Yes the Jumo 213 had some development problems. I would have to do some digging though.

Not so sure Chris. The time spent on the 190B/C helped with the development time of the D. If Mtt didn't hog all the DB603s, the 190 C might have been produced before the 190D.

[ChrisMcD]

Hi Kutscha,

Don't know where I got the idea of the 109/603 from! Must be a brainstorm. Mind you, it was a pre-war engine, so why was it not developed earlier for fighters?

Politics is probably the answer to which engine went where.

But, getting back to the thread. The 190D's and 152's were superb aircraft.

[Kutscha]

LOL Chris, knew it had to be a typo as you are very knowledgeable. Sometimes I will write 601 or 603 instead of 605.