To Possibly Hit the British Oil Suppy

[Romantic Technofreak]

Friends, let me take the opportunity to ask a rather difficult question. In the nearer past, we had threads like if there were too many Spitfires in Britain in the second half of the war, or the possible effects of the FW 187 entering production. Sorry if I was not able to join these discussions, but my question, a strategic one, has to deal with them.

I mean, what should Germany have done in a situation between Summer 1941 and early 1944, if enough aircraft and crew members were available, but still no invasion in Britain were planned. Also, base your considerations rationally and exclude such stupidities like "Baedeker" offensives. I especially ask the British members here: Do you think it would have been possible to virtually knock Britain out of the war in a way that the vast majority of British and American aircraft stationed in Britain would become more or less grounded? Also, the Royal Navy would have been touched because the warships also mostly ran on oil-consuming engines.

Do you think it would be possible to hit shipping, harbours, and especially, oil storages and the fuel-producing industry in a devastating way? Or do you think this would have not been possible by any means? I read a historian who said especially the concentration of shipping in and around the import harbours would have justified a second BoB. But I am not convinced about that if I calculate that the bombing of Malta and Murmansk was also only of limited success.

Do you think it would be possible to reconnoiter the oil storages and industry at all (e.g. by using Ar 240 aircraft)? Do you think it would be possible to hit them with the necessary accuracy, maybe using bombers escorted by FW 187? Or do you think there would be always enough otherwise unemployed Spitfires (and pilots?) to repel any new air offensive by the Luftwaffe? What about if the storage places get surrounded by forests of AA gun barrels?

Your thoughts please! Thank you for every answer!

Regards, RT

[Red Admiral]

I doubt it with the aircraft and technical aids the Luftwaffe had available.

One of the largest refineries in the UK is at Ellesmere Port, which is in between Liverpool and Wales. I'm lead to believe the location was chosen as it was one of the most cloudy locations in the UK. Its also in the middle of nowhere with little navigation points in addition to being a far way away from Germany. Its difficult to see the scenario where the Luftwaffe is able to make a large dent on Western Approaches traffic.

[ChrisMcD]

Hi RT,

I agree with Red Admiral. Liverpool was the main port of arrival for most of the Atlantic trade with Glasgow being another major one.

As you have indicated both are well out of range of the Luftwaffe's single engined fighters and I suspect that the Ju 88 and He III would have not carried much of a bomb load that distance. Unless the RAF was totally crippled they would have been just too far over defended territory.

I am not saying that it was impossible, but that post General Werver, it was a strategic task that the Luftwaffe had taken a clear decision not to deal with.

As you say, this would have taken a sizeable Ju 90/Fw 187 force that would not have been doable at the same time as building up the Ju 88 and He III force. Also, the RAF work on specialised bomber destroyers like the Defiant and Whirlwind might have proved to have been more necessary than was the real case.

Still conjures up pictures does it not.

[dracos]

One little-known fact about the British oil supply is that Great Britain had a domestic oil field. Oil had been discovered in the Eakring area in 1939 and 1940. By August 1942, there were 50 wells producing a total of about 700 barrels a day.

This is from the book The Secret of Sherwood Forest. Oil Production in England During World War II. By Guy H. Woodward and Grace Steele Woodward. University of Oklahoma Press, 1973.

I was working near Ardmore, Ok, three years ago and discovered this book in a local bookstore. England had oil fields in WW-II?!

dracos

[ground crew]

Interesting lead. I found Dukes Wood on google. American drillers. Says they got up to 3,000 barrels per day during war which made a difference. Brits learned a lot about faster drilling, too.

Anyway, my aircraft answer is a bit soft, just that Goering lacked both vision and clout for such a good strategic idea, therefore lacked equipment and staff. (I keep getting hung up on politics.) They didn't understand why the Brits didn't cave in. If he had thought Brits would fight it out he could have planned ahead properly but his boss would not have agreed.

Donitz had the vision but also lacked clout.

Even so, maybe change of war material philosophy and crash project on readying the engines could have gotten 262s there and back in numbers in 42-43?

Make it 45-48 and delay the war inception? Then German jets could get there and back, dodging Meteors?

[ChrisMcD]

IIRC tankers were a priority target for Doenitz's U Boats and the crews were paid a higher rate since their chances of surviving being torpedoed were about the same as a snowballs in a blast furnace.

A lot of British strategy in WWII revolved about protecting the oil fields in Persia and Iraq - for example the invasion of Syria to stop the Luftwaffe helping the Iraqi air force
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d144/chrismcd3/110_iraq.jpg
Those 110's got all over the place

[Romantic Technofreak]

*Ground Crew* said:

Goering lacked both vision and clout for such a good strategic idea, therefore lacked equipment and staffOf course, you need to assume the contrary to judge the scenario. Just take the thought there is a fleet of enough He 277/Do 335 to do the task, and a leadership able to make use of them in an appropriate way.

Do you think it would have been possible to reconnoiter and hit the British oil storages, maybe the native production (as mentioned by *Dracos*) too (as it was a "secret", of Sherwood Forest), at all? Do you know how many oil storages have been spread over Britain and where were they located? In one of my books I mean to have a map showing Britain with its main strategic targets, but I forgot in which one, and yet found no time to search...

Do you think it would have been possible to considerably hit a harbour in a way to make it more or less unusable? In one of my books it is said, when the Allied forces left Narvik, they "destroyed all harbour facilities". But I never heared of any effect of this on the ore supply for Germany from Sweden. I mean, sooner or later it should have an effect when moorings and cranes are broken down... But, even in the worst days of the BoB, nothing is heard about the supply of London being ever hampered in any way, and as much as I know, the harbour quarter was a main target...

Difficult questions, I know. Thanks for your patience.

Regards, RT

[GregP]

Hi RT!

I am reminded that the Irish never entered the war on either side. If Germany had been able to get the Irish Republic to allow them to base some aircraft there, then yes, the Luftwaffe could have had close bases within easy striking distance of critical British supply lines.

Even the short-range Bf 109 could have made forays into England from there, and the Ju 88, He 111, and even the Bf 110 could have mounted a serious effort.

I am not saying this was possible, just mentioning the possibility since what the Luftwaffe lacked the most versus England were airfields within Blitzkreig range. If they were to somehow be made available, then things might easily have worked out differently, or at least might have taken a significantly different track.

Lest anyone think that I didn't consider it, I point out that if England were to fall into easy range of the Luftwaffe by virtue of Irish airfields, then the airfields in Ireland would also have been within easy range for even short range aircraft such as the Spitfire. I believe the bomb load of a Lancaster flying only a sort distance would be significant. Even a B-17 could haul a VERY heavy load for short distances.

Proximity works both ways, and I am not discounting the response of the British and Allies, just putting forth a possibility that hasn't been widely discussed here. I tend to think this scenario was faintly possible, but highly unlikely, given the expected rain of bombs from the RAF in response to such a development.

[Wuzak]

I'm not sure that the Irish would have been so accomodating to the Nazis. And if the suggestion that they would help the Germans I'm sure the British would have little hesitation in taking over the country.

Then there is the small matter of getting the equipment to Ireland - past the Royal Navy and the RAF.

[GregP]

Hi Wuzak,

I agree with you. And I was not saying the Irish were Nazi sympasizers. I was pointing out an alternative possibility that COULD have resulted in German airfields within easy striking distance of England.

Alternatives are always querelous since they never really happened. The possibility that RT asked about, that is ... could Germany have disrupted the English supply lines and , more specifically, the oil supply COULD have been possible if the Germans could have placed airfields in Ireland.

We all know they did not. History has spoken. The possibilities are excellent fodder for the old "what if" scenarios.

[Wuzak]

Yes, I suppose it COULD have happened.

Another possibility would be that the Franco regime, being sympathetic to the Nazis and indepted to them for the help in the Spanish Civil War could gift Germany the Canary Islands.

This would provide a useful base for the U-boats to operate against supply shipping in the Atlantic and emerging from the Mediterranean.

Not so useful as an airbase against the UK, but could have been useful as an airbase for antishipping duties, and for NW Africa. Dare I say it, but it could have been useful for potential strikes against the US, had their long range aircraft been suitable.

[GregP]

Wuzak,

I agree again. The Canaries COULD have been a strike base. But, as I said earlier, proximity works both ways. If your enemy is in range, you are, too, assuming you HAVE the range. In the Canaries, I think we would not have had the range.

I doubt the Germans would either. The Canary Islands are off Africa, and would have been an extreme range for attacks on the U.S.A., and the German long range planes weren't very numerous.