Ploesti: Operation Tidal Wave

[Wuzak]

The Ploesti mission on 1 August 1943 was partially successful - several plants were severely damaged, and short term production problems ensued. Howvere most of the damage was quickly repaired and production restored, except in one facility.

The losses of B-24s was severe enough that it was some time before the complex was again attacked. Like the Schweinfurt raid, repeat attacks were required but the USAAF strength wasn't yet sufficient to cope with such losses.

If they had their time again do you think the planners would have still gone for low level attacks?

I understand that there was no reconnaissance of the are before the raid. Is this true? Surely a recce would have revealed the defences which caused so much damage, and might have changed the raid tactics.

The Liberators had extra fuel and reduced bomb load - about 4000lbs per aircraft. Was there any other aircraft that could have done the job? Jimmy Doolitle's Tokyo raiders flew around 2400miles in their B-25s, albeit with reduced bomb load (2000lbs) and guns removed to enable carrier launching. I'm guessing that they would have fared as badly, and not done as much damage.

Any USN carriers in the Med? Perhaps F4Fs could have provided an escort, at least for part of the route.

[PMN1]

The Ploesti mission on 1 August 1943 was partially successful - several plants were severely damaged, and short term production problems ensued. Howvere most of the damage was quickly repaired and production restored, except in one facility.



Unfortunaely it also showed the vulnerability of the plants.

A very good book to get on this is 'Target: Hitler's Oil, Attacks on German Oil Supplies 1939 - 1945 by Ronald C Cooke and Roy Conyers Nesbit.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/0718305736/ref=dp_olp_used/279-5557288-6644325?ie=UTF8&condition=used

[Ricky]

Could bomber have been based in Russia? Or the Middle East? Or were distances still too great?

And, with Russia, there was the political consideration...

[PMN1]

Could bomber have been based in Russia? Or the Middle East? Or were distances still too great?

And, with Russia, there was the political consideration...

From ‘Target: Hitler’s Oil’ by Ronald C Cooke and Roy Conners Nesbit.

Whilst the Fifteenth continued its massive attacks, the squadrons of the RAF’s 205 Group concentrated on attacking the transportation system. There were only two ways in which Romanian oil could reach the Reich, by rail or river. Of these, the Danube was by far the more important, for a barge of around 2,000 tons could carry a load equivalent to 100 railway wagons. In April 1944, the heavy Halifaxes and Liberators and the medium Wellingtons of the Group began a well-conceived campaign to disrupt this traffic. It was a resuscitation of one of the aims of the ill-fated Despard expedition led by Commander Gibson almost exactly four years before, namely the sowing of fluvial mines in the Danube. The main weapon was the electro-magnetic mine, which rested on the bottom of the river and was activated by the metal of a vessel passing over it, creating a tremendous upward blast. These mines had proved most effective around the coasts of occupied Europe and were difficult to detect and sweep up. The best way for the Germans to dispose of them was through the use of ‘Mausiflugzeuge’ aircraft, such as Heinkel 111’s or Junkers 52’s fitted with giant mine-exploding rings, but such aircraft were in very short supply.

It is recorded that about 1,400 mines were dropped in the Danube by 205 Group during the next five months. In one month alone, 39 vessels were sunk and others damaged. Traffic along the Danube was reduced by some two-thirds, whilst the Germans were forced to divert large numbers of flak guns, balloons and minesweepers to the Danube from other areas along with their trained crews. The undramatic work of aerial minelaying was not potentially difficult or dangerous for the RAF crews, who operated at night, but it threw a heavy burden on the enemy.

Night-fighter Beaufighters of the Mediterranean Coastal Air Force took a hand in these events by attacking vessels on the Danube and rolling stock on the railways. They could see their quarry on moonlit nights and wreaked havoc with their armament of four 20mm canon apiece. The Danube, which had previously enjoyed reasonable tranquillity while the war raged elsewhere, suddenly became a most dangerous waterway for the Romanian crews of barges; many of them deserted and had to be pressed back into service.

[Wuzak]

Unfortunaely it also showed the vulnerability of the plants.

A very good book to get on this is 'Target: Hitler's Oil, Attacks on German Oil Supplies 1939 - 1945 by Ronald C Cooke and Roy Conyers Nesbit.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/0718305736/ref=dp_olp_used/279-5557288-6644325?ie=UTF8&condition=used

The first Ploesti raid was in 1942, undertaken by a dozen or so B-24s. I imagine this revealed the vulnerability of the plants. And probably because of this the more famous 1943 raid ran into some very stiff opposition.

[Trexx]

I understand that Russia did not cooperate. No Allied bombers were allowed to take off from their soil. This came into play in more than one theater.
Also, the defense of Ploesti was not a secret. I think for the attack they had spy information.
The B-24s had an elaborate, choreographed plan of attack to minimize it. It was botched quite badly. P-38 Lightnings were used to whomp a follow up attack that went pretty good... another low-level attack if I recall (from what I've read).

[Wuzak]

I understand that Russia did not cooperate. No Allied bombers were allowed to take off from their soil. This came into play in more than one theater.

They were certainly allowed to land in the SOviet Union - both BC & the 8th AF flew missions that were extreme long range and could not be achieved without landing in Russia. I think 617 even flew missions against the Tirpitz from Russia.

[Trexx]

They were certainly allowed to land in the SOviet Union - both BC & the 8th AF flew missions that were extreme long range and could not be achieved without landing in Russia. I think 617 even flew missions against the Tirpitz from Russia.

That is very interesting. I did not know that. Thanks. I know that a good handful of United States military airplanes landed in Soviet territory only to be interned for the duration of World War Two.

[Kutscha]

Trexx do a Google on Operation Frantic.

"Operation Frantic was a series of seven shuttle bombing operations conducted by American aircraft based in Britain or the Mediterranean which then landed at three American bases (including Poltava and Mirgorod) in the Soviet Union. This shuttle bombing technique complicated the defense of German targets.

Operation Frantic was to permanently establish three heavy bomber groups in Soviet territory,[4] but only a small contingent of U.S. troops were based on the Eastern Front."

wiki

[Trexx]

Trexx do a Google on Operation Frantic.

"Operation Frantic was a series of seven shuttle bombing operations conducted by American aircraft based in Britain or the Mediterranean which then landed at three American bases (including Poltava and Mirgorod) in the Soviet Union. This shuttle bombing technique complicated the defense of German targets.

Operation Frantic was to permanently establish three heavy bomber groups in Soviet territory,[4] but only a small contingent of U.S. troops were based on the Eastern Front."

wiki

Thanks again, Kutscha! I will,
uhhh... I am!

[Wuzak]

That is very interesting. I did not know that. Thanks. I know that a good handful of United States military airplanes landed in Soviet territory only to be interned for the duration of World War Two.

I think a number of aircraft and aircrew operating in the CBI theatre were detained in Russia. This was because the Soviets were not at war with Japan at the time. A few B-29s had to abort missions to Japan and land in Russia, and thus become the template for the Tupolev Tu-4.

[Trexx]

I think a number of aircraft and aircrew operating in the CBI theatre were detained in Russia. This was because the Soviets were not at war with Japan at the time. A few B-29s had to abort missions to Japan and land in Russia, and thus become the template for the Tupolev Tu-4.

Well, they did code name the rip-off, "BULL"!

From the copyrighted material I've recently swerved into, the Russians did allow for some missions to be flown out of Russia, but not many and they were NOT wholeheartedly cooperative (the Russian Military Leadership). The efforts were very small in comparison to the Maximum Effort that was excercised from other places.

...thanks again, Kutscha for the tip off.

[Kutscha]

by Joe Baugher (Joseph.F.Baugher@att.com)

On July 29, 1944, B-29-5-BW serial number 42-6256 commanded by Capt. Howard R. Jarrel was damaged by flak during a raid on the Showa steel works at Anshan in Manchuria. Unable to make the trip back to its base around Chengtu in China, the crew decided to divert to Vladivostok in the Soviet Union. Since the Soviet Union was not at war with Japan at the time, both the aircraft and Capt. Jarrel's crew were interned.

On August 20, 1944, during a raid on Yawata staged out of the Chengtu bases, B-29A-1-BN 42-93829 was forced to divert to the Soviet Union. It crashed in the foothills of Sikhote Alin Range east of Khabarovsk after the crew baled out. The crew was interned.

On the night of November 10/11, 1944, B-29 42-6365 was damaged during a raid against Omura on Kyushu and was forced to divert to Vladivostok. It was followed on November 21 by 42-6358. Again, both crews and both aircraft were interned.

The Soviets were now holding three intact B-29s and four B-29 crews. In January of 1945, it was arranged by the Soviets for these four crews to "escape" to the West via Teheran, but their B-29s remained behind.

[Trexx]

Interesting stuff here:

http://www.390th.org/warstories/Our%20Russian%20Adventure.htm

[ickysdad]

It seems to me that these type of targets were difficult to knock out even tank farms seem to be difficult also. So does anybody have any info on this? I'm asking this in regard to a debate I'm having in regarding say pearl Harbor's tank farms at the time of Pearl Harbor. IMHO if the 8th. and 15th. airforces had so much trouble with oil type targets using 4 engined bombers I don't see how carier based aircraft could do any better furthermore I'm thinking the USN in raids later in the war didn't do that well against oil storage facilities. Any opinions?

[Wuzak]

The 8th and 15th AFs had trouble with refineries and teh like because they tended to use smaller bombs - 250lb and 500lb bombs in the main - against these targets. On the other hand, whenever Bomber Command was used against the oil targets they used their 4000lb blast bombs in the main. These were more effective in causing damage.

With the smaller bombs it tended to be a race between the bombers and the repairers, the latter eventually being overwhelmed.

[PMN1]

The 8th and 15th AFs had trouble with refineries and teh like because they tended to use smaller bombs - 250lb and 500lb bombs in the main - against these targets. On the other hand, whenever Bomber Command was used against the oil targets they used their 4000lb blast bombs in the main. These were more effective in causing damage.

With the smaller bombs it tended to be a race between the bombers and the repairers, the latter eventually being overwhelmed.

Bomber Command raids also lasted longer giving keeping the firefighters under cover for longer.