Geheimprojekte - what can further be discussed

[Romantic Technofreak]

You remember Mr. "Geheimprojekte", he was here for 2-3 days (26-28 October), then disappered again. He made a lot of statements during this time, and due to their difficult structure, got no appropriate answer. Meanwhile, I collected his statements and evaluated them. Maybe he keeps on reading here.

It is not easy to extract something from G.'s statements what could trigger a further discussion. He has an affection towards German and Japanese long-range-projects and conspiracy theories connected to them. Such of these, like about refuelling the BV 222 from submarines or different ones like the closing of the website of a NZ private cruise missile constructor or a BK 117 stunt are told in the form of "closed claims" and anybody who does not share the same knowledge has no chance to develop the theme. Also, G.'s statements about the Nakajima G10N Fugaku project, so I think, are only interesting for specialists.

It is also noticeable that G. never quotes in an appropriate way. About a second German nuclear bomb project, there is nothing known in public. Everything about similar items essentially is nothing but more or less weakly referenced conspiracy theories.

So, the question is if anything interesting is left over from G.'s requests. OK, there is something. When he is right, he is right. He caught me having made a mistake as I gave the same value for the take-off distance both for Me 264 and Ju 390. This is comparedly easy to correct. The book about the Ju 90 and followers (Karl Kössler, Günter Ott, "Die großen Dessauer", publishing house Aviatic, 1993) gives values. The maximum take-off distance is 1,500 m (p. 242).

Another thing is the ability of the Ju 390 to reach the American mainland at all. You surely remember this claimed flight until "18 km off the New York coast". Before, I followed the argumentation by Kössler and Ott this flight being impossible because the only certainly finished prototype, the V1, was proven not having been in Western France at the discussed time (January 1944). But what if it had been the second prototype?

The statements of German POW's (one made the claim about this flight, another reported about the Ju 390 having an endurance of 32 hours) were considered being fibs. What made me pondering was how can it be that in secrecy-addicted Nazi Germany two comparedly low-ranking soldiers can have knowledge about the Ju 390 project at all. If both were questioned separately, this means nothing less that two German soldiers independently confirm the presence of a Ju 390 in Mont-de-Marsan!

OK, there are people possessing documents showing that the Ju 390 V2 was never finished, but given up by October 1944. For the further discussion, just let us assume that the V2 had been completed, and it was not just an upsized Ju 90, like the V1 was, but had already the 75 ton configuration foreseen for the coming serial plane.

I made some calculations, don't know if you are interested in details, so I post them only on request. Given a fuel capacity of the Ju 390 V2 of 65,000 lbs, I calculate a range of 10,668 km and an endurance of 30,48 hours (not included is the amount of fuel you need for the necessary climb and, of course, any weather influence). The distance between Mont-de-Marsan, New York and back is 11,734 km (also my calculation, using a formula that takes the earth as perfect sphere what it actually is not). Well, that's not quite exact, but somehow, the size matches...

Regards, RT

[ChrisMcD]

Hi RT,

Have you checked Wikipedia recently?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ju_390

It would appear that someone has done a huge amount of research on the Ju 390 flights. The V1 couldn't take the fuel load and the V2 was not ready in the timeline.

There is a lot of corroborative data which tends to make it believable.

Pity really, I was all for it.

By the way, what happened to the Dorner 19 V1? Seems to have vanished from history after 1938

Happy New Year

[Romantic Technofreak]

Hi Chris,

I just checked the Wikipedia article. The content is in correspondence with my knowledge. But there still is no good explanation how the statements of the German POW's went into the files, nor are their names known. So, this whole story could be a complete fake.

According to one of my latest sources, both Ju 89 and Do 19 fell victim to a simple budget cut. There were several phases in the planning activities of the RLM. One in 1938 tried to develop the armament process on a realistic, financially feasible base. This meant, among others, the cancellation of the pre-war strategic bomber program. Exact quoting on request.

Regards and Happy New Year to everybody! RT

[ChrisMcD]

Hi Chris,
But there still is no good explanation how the statements of the German POW's went into the files, nor are their names known.

Hi RT, there are a number of cases where POW's invented 'facts'.

Winkle Brown tells of a POW claiming a very short takeoff run and tight turning circle for the He 177 - which prompted him to comment when he flew the real thing.

And there is the RAF POW who claimed that the 'Metox' apparatus was being detected by Coastal Command as a distraction from centimetric radar.

It would only take a bit of careless interrogation for a second POW to realise his opportunity to add to the story. After all, a huge amount of work was being done on ultra-long range aircraft, so it would be normal for interrogators to ask about it.

[Ricky]

According to one of my latest sources, both Ju 89 and Do 19 fell victim to a simple budget cut. There were several phases in the planning activities of the RLM. One in 1938 tried to develop the armament process on a realistic, financially feasible base. This meant, among others, the cancellation of the pre-war strategic bomber program. Exact quoting on request.

Regards and Happy New Year to everybody! RT

Any idea what actually happened to the planes? The Douglas XB-19 for example was employed as a transport for many years.

[Romantic Technofreak]

Hi Ricky, as Chris already mentioned , there is no trace of them after 1938 (two Ju 89 are mentioned being in the Luftwaffe stock during the Sudeten crisis). They surely became scrapped. Their outline as slow aircraft of only medium range was also considered being a tactical misconception.

Regards, RT

[Romantic Technofreak]

I think I should not hide from you that Mr. Simon Gunson has a website of his own where he writes about the fate of the Ju 390 V-2. He is identical with *kiwikid*, and, I suppose, also with *Geheimprojekte*. You can read that all, here is the URL:

http://sites.google.com/site/junkersju390/home

But I think you should see that Mr. Gunson NEVER quotes correctly. If one wants to rewrite history, one has to follow a different working style than his.

To Ricky: Kössler and Ott say (p. 17) a Ju 89 and a Do 19 were still registered in late spring of 1939 and seen on airfields even some time later.

Regards, RT

[gruad]

Here's an enjoyable piece of speculation about the Amerikabomber.

http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=100388&highlight=amerikabomber

[Wuzak]

Interesting in that discussion was that most considered large bomber aircraft cruising at slightly more than 200mph at an altitude less than 30,000ft would be a sitting duck, one even suggesting a Boeing P-26 would be able to destroy them.

[ChrisMcD]

They do rather assume that the Luftwaffe is going to be daft enough to attack by daylight.

IMHO there cannot be an easier target to find than New York, so the obvious thing is to stooge over it at night, dropping landmines whenever there was an obvious target.

The disruption and diversion of resources would be immense - well worth building a few He 274's or whatever.

In retrospect I am surprised that the Luftwaffe did not do it. After all, there was already a worked example in the case of London and the Riesenflugzeug from WW I.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeppelin-Staaken_R.VI

They caused not a lot of damage, but plenty of chaos, huge diversion of resources, the creation of the RAF and a belief in the destructive power of the bomber that distorted most of the 30's.

Not a bad achievement for so few aircraft!

[Wuzak]

Would it be more productive to try and disrupt the shipping in and around New York?

Didn't a lot of supplies to the UK go through NY?

[ChrisMcD]

Would it be more productive to try and disrupt the shipping in and around New York?

Didn't a lot of supplies to the UK go through NY?

Yeah, great idea! Just drop some mines in the harbour and you would create absolute chaos.:eek:

[Wuzak]

I guess by the time this would have been possible Hitler was intent at revenge attacks - primarily against London. If he had an Amerika bomber I'm sure he'd have opted to bomb NY Washington DC or any other major cities within range.

[Romantic Technofreak]

I have to say if I compare the forum quoted by *Gruad* to others, I know why I am here. You show a kind of sincereness and knowledge I miss on many other places.

Yes, I think it would not be the worst idea for the Luftwaffe to perform at least a couple of attacks at the American East coast. The area is huge, given a bit more range than necessary for the least, the bomber could pass the coastline anywhere, then turn and attack the target from any direction, catching the defenders in a complete state of surprise.

For the given time, it would be very, very difficult, even for the US, to establish a densely detecting radar system and a guidance system for both daylight and nightfighters to pursue and intercept these kinds of targets. I also expect the confusion mentioned by Chris, very probably causing panic, fierce public discussions and in the final effect tieing down lots of resources for an appropriate defence system.

The only trouble is: aircraft like these should have been combat ready at least in early 1943 for to show any considerable effect on the war. This would have needed the thought that war with America is inevitable already around 1937, and what the Wehrmacht lacked most: reasonable strategic long-term planning and a leader who is not a self-destructive lunatic.

Regards, RT

[Red Admiral]

How about a cruise missile like the V-1 with a longer range? Carry one or two into the mid Atlantic and launch towards NYC. Accuracy would be poor but the idea is cause panic rather than actual damage. It should be able to cut 500-1000miles off the round trip which makes things a bit easier for the carrier aircraft.

[ChrisMcD]

what the Wehrmacht lacked most: reasonable strategic long-term planning and a leader who is not a self-destructive lunatic.
Regards, RT

Hi RT,

I must say I agree with your comments about this forum, IIRC the choice of He III's and Ju 87's was deliberate. Goering was well aware of demands building up a bomber fleet was having on the German economy. Remember, at this stage he was still very much 'on the ball'.

In order to get numbers built up as soon as possible he deliberately countermanded Werver's plans for a four motor strategic 'Ural' bomber fleet with a tactical one. As he said, "Hitler only asks me how many bombers there are - not how many engines they have".

I assume that Werver had read "Mein Kampf" and was working on the forthcoming war with the Russians, while Goering realised that the most immediate campaigns were going to be shorter ranged.

In all fairness, if the He 177 had been as good as Heinkel's previous designs the Luftwaffe would have had a decent strategic bomber in the right timescale. OK, not able to reach New York, but it proved to be a decent platform for a stand-off missile - so why not Red Admirals long range V1?

[Wuzak]

How about a cruise missile like the V-1 with a longer range? Carry one or two into the mid Atlantic and launch towards NYC. Accuracy would be poor but the idea is cause panic rather than actual damage. It should be able to cut 500-1000miles off the round trip which makes things a bit easier for the carrier aircraft.

There were expeiments with submersible launching pads for V2 rockets, which would be towed behind the new class of submarine.

Ovbiously this would have been rather late in the war, but a similar scheme for launching V1s would be too remember it was only in 1944 that these were launched against Britain.

Still, if they made a larger V1, with additional fuel and range, it may have been possible to launch them from the Atlantic using existing types of aircraft, rather than going for new ultr long range bombers.

[Red Admiral]

Could go with a piston engine instead. Pushes up the manufacturing cost a bit but fuel consumption is over 4 times less which would be useful for more range.

I think people make a bit of a mistake in comparing the He-111, Do 17, Ju 88 to the heavy four engined bombers of a couple of years later. They compare quite well to their contemporaries like the Hampden and Wellington. The problem was that there was no larger aircraft to supplant them in 1941+ because the Heinkel 177 was a failure.

[ChrisMcD]

There were expeiments with submersible launching pads for V2 rockets, which would be towed behind the new class of submarine.

Ovbiously this would have been rather late in the war, but a similar scheme for launching V1s would be too
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d144/chrismcd3/v1.jpg

Sorry, I forgot that they did do that
http://www.usscusk.com/1947.htm
Well, the USN anyway!

[Romantic Technofreak]

If you launch V-1-style missiles from a sub somewhere off the Long Island coast and aim at NYC, it is pretty sure you may hit someting in New England, but better results are not expectable at all.

The missile's flight control was very advanced for its time, but very primitve compared to modern standards. I know what I am talking about since I learned a lot about this while making a translation of a V-1 information movie on behalf of the Planes of Fame museum. It was not before the late 70s/ealy 80s that the cruise missile program solved the problems.

Regards, RT

[Nick Sumner]

Would it be more productive to try and disrupt the shipping in and around New York?

Didn't a lot of supplies to the UK go through NY?

Most north atlantic convoys actually marshalled in the Bedford Basin near Halifax, which is not only closer to European bases but conected to the sea by a very narrow channel that I think could be more easily blocked than the NY roads.

[Wuzak]

Most north atlantic convoys actually marshalled in the Bedford Basin near Halifax, which is not only closer to European bases but conected to the sea by a very narrow channel that I think could be more easily blocked than the NY roads.

So, basically, mining of the seaways may have been more viable and effective for the Luftwaffe than trying to bomb Washington DC or NYC?

[Nick Sumner]

So, basically, mining of the seaways may have been more viable and effective for the Luftwaffe than trying to bomb Washington DC or NYC?

The propoganda value of hitting a US city would have been substantial but a mining campaign against Halifax would have been more strategically sensible. Having said that it would only hold up the convoys for a limited time and a second atempt at an attack on Halifax would likely have been met with greatly enhanced air defences.