Effect of the Fw187 entering production

[Wuzak]

By 1939 Focke Wulf had started making pre-production examples of the Fw187 (-A0), which were of the two seat variant rather than the original single seat variant. The engines were Jumo 210s, which were underpowered.

One of the test series of Fw-187s was fitted with DB600s, and achieved a level top speed of 395mph - significantly faster than the contemporary Spitfire and Bf109, let alone the Bf110.

If series production had commenced, as was initially ordered until Milch cancelled production, what effect would the Fw187 have on the early part of the war, specifically the Battle of Britain.

By the time of the Battle of Britain the Bf109 was being fitted with the DB601, which gave much improved performance over the DB600. Was DB601 production in early 1940 sufficient to be fitted to production Fw197s (probably -A2s or -B1s by then) in significant numbers.

If that was so, the Fw187 would have vastly superior performance to the RAF defensive fighters, and would have a range about half as much again as the Bf109 - ie would have provided more loiter time over England.

I doubt that the Fw187 would have been able to compete with the Spitfire or Hurricane in a dog-fighting contest, but using appropriate tactics could have been a real headache for the RAF.

[kool kitty89]

If you produce the Fw 187 (preferably a single seat version) in place of the Bf 110, thre should be sufficient engines available, that would have otherwise gone to the Bf 110.

Aganst the Spit or Hurricane, there would be several factors to consider. Roll rate at low speeds will likely be lower than the Spit or Hurricane, though depending on the aileron/control arrangement used. (push tubes -used on most US fighters and the Fw 190 offer much better control than cables)

Climb rate suould be better and turn rate could be competitive with the Spitfire. (assuming the 187 uses a similar high lift airfoil to the 190, the high aspect ratio plus twin "prop wash" could give an advantage -particularly as the "prop wash" should allow higher angle of attack -particularly important in turns)


But even if roll and turning ability are compeditive, using energy tactics "Boom and Zoom" should be the most advantageous. (taking advantage of the 187's higher top speed, better climb, and diving ability)



In a BoB type situation, the Fw 187 will certainly be more effective than the Bf 110 was, and generally better performing than the 109 (though being significantly more expensive).
However, the Bf 109 would have been much more useful in such a situation if provisions for a drop tank had been standard. (a relatively simple arrangement, and somthing that had been well tested early on, but considered unnecessary)

With a 300L drop tank, the 109 should have plenty of range to fly escort or fighter sweeps over southern Britain. (the main target area before the switch to unsucessful city bombing)

[Trexx]

If you produce the Fw 187 (preferably a single seat version) in place of the Bf 110, thre should be sufficient engines available, that would have otherwise gone to the Bf 110.

Aganst the Spit or Hurricane, there would be several factors to consider. Roll rate at low speeds will likely be lower than the Spit or Hurricane, though depending on the aileron/control arrangement used. (push tubes -used on most US fighters and the Fw 190 offer much better control than cables)

Climb rate suould be better and turn rate could be competitive with the Spitfire. (assuming the 187 uses a similar high lift airfoil to the 190, the high aspect ratio plus twin "prop wash" could give an advantage -particularly as the "prop wash" should allow higher angle of attack -particularly important in turns)


But even if roll and turning ability are compeditive, using energy tactics "Boom and Zoom" should be the most advantageous. (taking advantage of the 187's higher top speed, better climb, and diving ability)



In a BoB type situation, the Fw 187 will certainly be more effective than the Bf 110 was, and generally better performing than the 109 (though being significantly more expensive).
However, the Bf 109 would have been much more useful in such a situation if provisions for a drop tank had been standard. (a relatively simple arrangement, and somthing that had been well tested early on, but considered unnecessary)

With a 300L drop tank, the 109 should have plenty of range to fly escort or fighter sweeps over southern Britain. (the main target area before the switch to unsucessful city bombing)

The thing I first notice on that airplane is the total lack of side or rear view for the pilot. That is a serious detriment to combat flying.
I'd bet the English would give them the same treatment as the medium bombers. "Shoot them full of holes with Hurricanes".
What is the deal with that layout?

[Kutscha]

Trexx, are you thinking of the Ta 154?

Fw 187

http://richard.ferriere.free.fr/3vues/fw187_3v.jpg

[Trexx]

Trexx, are you thinking of the Ta 154?

Fw 187

http://richard.ferriere.free.fr/3vues/fw187_3v.jpg

Ooopsy! Yes.

Dang, I don't think I've ever heard of the Fw-187!

[Wuzak]

Neither had I until a couple of years ago Trexx.

It still amazes me that this aircraft didn't achieve even a small production run. Three pre-production examples were made and used as factory defence aircraft by Focke Wulf pilots. I believe they also spent time in a Bf110 squadron until Milch, or someone with similar authority, found out and ordered them away from service.

[ickysdad]

Didn't the FW-187 have structural and engine cooling issues?

[Kutscha]

from 'Kurt Tank: Focke-Wulf's Designer and Test Pilot'

After being thoroughly evalulated with full armament at Rechlin, the 3 were subsequently turned over to the previously mentioned Bremen Industrieshutz Staffel. The company's test pilots operated these a/c during air raids against the facilities. Such operations were prohibited after Dipl.-Ing Melhorn, a member of the flight test department was killed on 10-8-43 when attempting to land after shooting down 3 four engine bombers.

The company loaned the 3 planes to a fighter unit in Norway during the winter of 1940. The expeirences of the pilots with these high performance a/c were put down in a report filed with the Technisches Amt., which simultaneously called for the fw187's full scall production. The unit was subsequently ordered to return the a/c, which were being flown illegally, back to the Focke-Wulf company.

[Kutscha]

Didn't the FW-187 have structural and engine cooling issues?

Non that I have come across. The Ta154 did though.

[kool kitty89]

The original (single seat) Fw 187 had a somewhat different canopy, very similar to the Fw 190's. Albeit mounted a a different angle and faired into the rear fuselage in the "razorback" configuration. Rear view wouldn't be as good as the 190, but better than the 109, and foreward view should have been excellent.

http://static.rcgroups.com/forums/attachments/8/5/0/5/1/a952560-24-fw187_3v.jpg

[Wuzak]

The pilot would probably be hard of hearing after a few combat sorties with the guns right next to his ears.....

[ickysdad]

Non that I have come across. The Ta154 did though.


page 186 of "WArplanes of the Third Riech" by William Green .

[Kutscha]

Can you scan and post the page please ickysdad?

Maybe it is the surface evaporative cooling system that was tried on the V6?

[Wuzak]

Can you scan and post the page please ickysdad?

Maybe it is the surface evaporative cooling system that was tried on the V6?


Just read about the Fw187 in another of my books - German Aircraft of WW2 (not sure of the exact title or author as I am away from my books at the moment) which said that the impressive performance of the V6 was due to more powerful DB600 engines (950-1000hp) and the evaporative cooling system - which was a failure.

To be honest, I don't think that there was a successful evaporative cooling system used except for aircraft that were only to last short periods of time.

One of the Me209 prototypes virtually had a total loss cooling system!

[Wuzak]

from 'Kurt Tank: Focke-Wulf's Designer and Test Pilot'

The company loaned the 3 planes to a fighter unit in Norway during the winter of 1940. The expeirences of the pilots with these high performance a/c were put down in a report filed with the Technisches Amt., which simultaneously called for the fw187's full scall production. The unit was subsequently ordered to return the a/c, which were being flown illegally, back to the Focke-Wulf company.

The pilots that flew the Fw187 much preferred them to the Bf110s that were their regular mounts.

Also it is said that the Fw187 was very competitive with contemporaruy Luftwaffe single seat fighters (ie Bf109) in terms of manoeuvrability.

[Kutscha]

Be sure Wuzak. ;)

The racer 209 used an evaporative cooling system.

The V4 was 'clearly superior'** to the Bf109 and Bf110 which all used the Jumo210 engine. No reason not to believe with the DB600 and 601 engines, it would also not be superior or at the least equal to the Mtt a/c.

** from the K. Tank bio.

[ickysdad]

Can you scan and post the page please ickysdad?

Maybe it is the surface evaporative cooling system that was tried on the V6?

"Cooling problems were soon encountered with the evaporative system accompained by some skin buckling and distortion. "

[Ricky]

Y'know, this plane kinda reminds me of the Whirlwind. A potentially excellent twin-engine design that never quite made it.

[Wuzak]

Y'know, this plane kinda reminds me of the Whirlwind. A potentially excellent twin-engine design that never quite made it.

And fitted with the "wrong" engines.

[kool kitty89]

I think the Whirlwind was OK, but it was to "tight" of a design, with limited development potentioal and room for improvement to the desing without substancial modification.

An aircraft I find more attractive and comperable to the Fw 187 is the Gloster G.39 design (F.9/37) often referred to as the "Reaper."


The V6 prototype did use evaporative cooling with the DB 600's (not such was impossible with the Jumo 210's unpressurized cooling system), but I think with a compact, low drag conventional radiator combined with the more powerful DB 601 performance would have been even better. (also note that the V6 was a 2-seater model, so performance should be somewhat better as a single seater.)

The V1 prototype was fitted with retractible radiators remenisant of the He 111's. The V2 and most other prototypes (as well as the A-0 pre production 2-seaters) had fixed radiators with a rather large scoop.

There were some initial problems with "tail flutter" on the V1 prototype, but I believe modifications to the fin (vertical stabilizer) and tailplane (horizontal stabilizer) solved this.


The difference between the radiators can be seen in the previously posted drawing: http://static.rcgroups.com/forums/attachments/8/5/0/5/1/a952560-24-fw187_3v.jpg

and here:
http://www.luftarchiv.de/index.htm?/flugzeuge/focke-wulf/fw187.htm

as well as: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Launchpad/4471/fw187.htm
Fw 187 V1
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Launchpad/4471/fw187-1.jpg
V2
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Launchpad/4471/fw187-2.jpg

and A-0
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Launchpad/4471/fw187-5.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Launchpad/4471/fw187-6.jpg
(more pics in the links above)


The fixed chin radiator of the Jumo 210 is rather similar to that of the P-40 (particularly the post-Tomahawk P-40D and later) and the "engine egg" Merlin used on bombers and the Beaufighter. (and The Miles M.20) And also somewhat similar to the chin radiator of the Jumo powered Bf 109's.

[Ricky]

I think the Whirlwind was OK, but it was to "tight" of a design, with limited development potentioal and room for improvement to the desing without substancial modification.


Speaking of being 'tight' (and I know this wasn't what you meant), but I do remember that the Fw187's cockpit was so cramped that they had to move some of the engine dials out to the engine nacelles, meaning the pilot needed to look out of his window to check up on his engines.

[Kutscha]

The cockpit of the Hs129 was also tight and mounted engine instruments on the inner face of the cowl. The Bf110 did the same.

[pbhawkin]

AND so was the Heinkel 115 with guages (4 I think) mounted on each engine.

[kool kitty89]

The Ju 88 had a similar arrangement. It seems to have been fairly common on German twin engined aircraft. (possibly other multi-engine aircraft as well)

You can see how crowded some of the instruments can get in the cockpit for a twin on aircraft like the P-38. (the use of a flight yolk rather than a stick didn't help any either)

The Mossie seems to have had a decent arrangement, as well as several other moderately small allied twins. (like the A-20)

Makes you wonder though, how crowded must the instrument panel have been on the Whirlwind?!

[Ricky]

I didn't know it was so common in German twins - I have only ever seen this feature ascribed to the Fw187.

[Wuzak]

One of the test series of Fw-187s was fitted with DB600s, and achieved a level top speed of 395mph - significantly faster than the contemporary Spitfire and Bf109, let alone the Bf110.

The estimated top speed of the Fw187 when fitted with the DB600 and conventional radiators was 348mph - still competitive with the Bf109 of the time.