Best nightfighter of WW2

[Wuzak]

We have discussed this question several times before, such as in http://warbirdsforum.com/showthread.php?t=1451, so I thought it would be a good topic for a poll...

The nominations for the best NF of WW2:

1. de Havilland Mosquito NF30
2. Heinkel He219 UHU
3. Northrop P-61A/B Black Widow
4. Messerschmitt Me110
5. Lockheed P-38M Lightning
6. Other

[Kutscha]

I don't know why you put those other a/c in the list Wuzak after the Mossie? ;) ;)

For 'other', there is the Ju88.

[Ricky]

Can open, worms everywhere...

[scotty]

Wow, deja-vu

Anyhows, I cant see further than the mossie.

The Me110 can be discounted straight off, if only for the reason that it was'nt even as good as the Ju88. The lightning goes because single-seat at night is less than multiple-seat.

From what i remember the black widow version that had it all was the 'c' version?, and it aint on the list.

Finally, the contentious one. The Uhu would be a strong contender had it performed anywhere near it's 'claimed' specs..but that's been done to death on previous threads..

[Red Admiral]

The P-38M was a two seat version, although extremely cramped.

Personally I'd have to go with the Mosquito given the poorer airframe and radar performance of the He 219.

[Che_Guevara]

Mossie vs. Black Widow, there was something like this 60 years ago ;)

"On 5th July both aircraft duly went through their "demos", with their respective pilots adopting a "balls to the wall" attitude. As every member of the 422nd had predicted, the P-61 excelled in every facet of the test - it was faster at 5.000, 10.000 and 20.000 ft, out-turned the Mosquito at every altitude by a considerable margin and far surpassed it in rate of climb."


Additional considering the armament, that´s defenitly one big "yeah" for the Black Widow :)

[Kutscha]

Only problem with that 'demo' Che was it was a combat veteran Mossie II vs the P-61. If it had been vs the latest Mossie, the NF30, we would see different results, in favour of the Mossie.

Osprey has a nice couple of book, Combat A/C, on the Mossie NF and the P-61.

[Wuzak]

Wow, deja-vu
From what i remember the black widow version that had it all was the 'c' version?, and it aint on the list.


I excluded the P-61C because it did not see service during WW2. The P-61C had the turbocharged version of the R-2800, which enabled the power to be maintained at a much higher altitude and have much higher performance.

The P-61A & B both did see some service in WW2. They used a two stage two speed supercharged R-2800 - the same as in the Hellcat IIRC. Or was it the Corsair?

[Wuzak]

The P-38M was a two seat version, although extremely cramped.

Personally I'd have to go with the Mosquito given the poorer airframe and radar performance of the He 219.

We should get at least one vote for the P-38M! ;)

[Kutscha]

P-38M

http://www.hobbyhome.ca/Academy/Plastic/Air_1-48/2145.jpg

[Wuzak]

http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/PippinBill/5211.jpg

[Wuzak]

Still no votes for teh Black Widow?

[merlin]

In any poll like this - it's up each to define (when it isn't given) their own version of 'best'!

Just as it is strange that the Ju 88C is not included, it could be said that the Beaufighter night-fighter should be listed, for both defending Britain's skies at night and acting as an intruder over the continent.

The He219 could've been the best German night-fighter, but not enough saw service long enough for anyone to know.

So for voting purposes I stick with the Mossie - for its length of supremacy as a nightfighter. The Black widow may have been better in some circumstances, but I doubt if any served in the RAF, while many Mossies served with the USAAF!

[Wuzak]

Just as it is strange that the Ju 88C is not included, it could be said that the Beaufighter night-fighter should be listed, for both defending Britain's skies at night and acting as an intruder over the continent.


Sorry. Those are oversights, and why I added the other option.

[Double T]

The Northrup-built P-61 "Black Widow" without question.

Tim

[gruad]

On total kills I guess this would be the Ju88, but I read John Cunningham's book about the Mossie and the quantum leap it was from the Beaufighter.

[Lightning]

Hi All,

My pick: P-61. It was purpose built, had first-rate electronics, very good performance, and tremendous firepower. It also saw considerable service in the ETO, MTO, and PTO, so its qualities were successfully put to the test.

My second choice is the Mosquito. It was very effective in this role, thereby again demonstrating the type's fantastic versatility.

I would probably have picked either the He119 or the P-38M as my top choices (not sure of which would be first and second), but neither saw enough service to have verified its promise--in fact, the "Night Lightning" probably never saw actual combat.

Regards,
Lightning

Changed by edit: correcting "He119" to "He219" as called to attention by Kutscha. I plead typo.

[Kutscha]

Hi All,
I would probably have picked either the He119 or the P-38M as my top choices (not sure of which would be first and second), but neither saw enough service to have verified its promise--in fact, the "Night Lightning" probably never saw actual combat.

Regards,
Lightning

He 119????

http://www.aviastar.org/pictures/germany/he-119.gif

Must mean the He219.

[Lightning]

He 119????

http://www.aviastar.org/pictures/germany/he-119.gif

Must mean the He219.

Quite right. Make that "219." (Original changed by edit.)

[Pioneer]

[QUOTE=merlin;24374] It could be said that the Beaufighter night-fighter should be listed, for both defending Britain's skies at night and acting as an intruder over the continent.QUOTE]

I second this!!

Regards
Pioneer

[Lightning]

Hi Pioneer,

[QUOTE=merlin;24374] It could be said that the Beaufighter night-fighter should be listed, for both defending Britain's skies at night and acting as an intruder over the continent.QUOTE]

I second this!!

Regards
Pioneer

No doubt the Beaufighter was an effective and valuable asset, but the subject here is the "best" nightfighter. In this role, I don't believe the Beaufighter quite measures up to the others (with the possible exception of the Bf 110).

Regards,
Lightning

[ChrisMcD]

The Northrup-built P-61 "Black Widow" without question.
Tim

Please do expand a bit.

I am a great fan of Jack Northrop, but the P 61 was not one of his best.

Late, development problems (the turret!) ,oversized (bigger than a medium bomber), weird controls (spoilerons forsooth!) and a less than stellar war record.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-61_Black_Widow

As a Brit it pains me to say it, but for sheer numbers of planes shot down surely it has to be the Ju 88 - mines a G by the way!

Mind you, if it was fighter versus fighter the Mossie would win every time - although I am not so sure about that Lightning with the funny nose.

[Double T]

Chris:
Lightning has addressed my reasoning on voting P-61 quite well.
The Black Widow was also said to be quite manueverable with it's unique "spoilerons."
The 4x20mm cannon alone were enough to put any enemy aircraft down.

Tim

[Ricky]

although I am not so sure about that Lightning with the funny nose.

That's no way to talk about one of our most valued members!:D:p

Only kidding Lightning;)

[ChrisMcD]

That's no way to talk about one of our most valued members!:D:p
Only kidding Lightning;)

Hi Ricky,

I have a liking for the P 38M, but as Lightning said it was too late.

Thinking about it a bit more, my feeling is that the trend towards huge nightfighters was wrong - the real need was to shrink the radar equipment.

Which may explain my reservations about the P 61 - sorry Double T but I really think it was too much too late!

On that basis I would argue that the American Navy Corsair and Hellcat single seater conversions are probably the best nightfighters in terms of combined capability and war record!

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d144/chrismcd3/304474.jpg

[Lightning]

Hi Ricky,

That's no way to talk about one of our most valued members!:D:p

Only kidding Lightning;)

Darn you again, Ricky! That's why I never posted my picture. How did you ever find out? :D

Regards,

Lightning

[Lightning]

Hi Chris,

Hi Ricky,
... I would argue that the American Navy Corsair and Hellcat single seater conversions are probably the best nightfighters in terms of combined capability and war record!

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d144/chrismcd3/304474.jpg

The most effective night fighters of the war had a second crew member that was a highly trained radar observer and were therefore not single-seaters. A great advantage of this was that the radar operator could concentrate all his efforts on aquiring ellusive targets, keeping them in view, and issuing course, speed, and altitude changes to his pilot. The pilot, on the other hand, could concentrate on flying the plane without having to look at, and interpret the display on the radar screen.

Because of the larger size of these planes, their radar installations--to include the antenna--usually had greater capability. Also, the placement of the antenna in the nose was superior to those pods on the wings of the single-engine F6F and F4U--not to mention the aerodynamic and balance effects of those pods. The P-38M also relied on a pod, but, at least, it was nose mounted.

Regards,

Lightning

[ChrisMcD]

Hi Lightning,

I am sure you are right - but single crewed night fighters did very well at Munda in 1943

see if this link to Google books works?

http://books.google.com/books?id=JqRIaIn1LFgC&lpg=PA53&ots=KkbuR67WaM&dq=widhelm%20munda&pg=PA53#v=onepage&q=widhelm%20munda&f=false

[Double T]

Chris:
I would disagree with your rationale that the best nightfighters were also the best dayfighters... aka single-engined and single-crewed.
I think the doctrine that Lightning eludes to is correct. A multi-crewed twin-engine nightfighter was superior to any single-engined variant... of the time. The traits required for a superior nightfighter differ from those of an agile, dogfighting day-fighter.
The Northrup P-61 was designed from the onset as a dedicated nightfighter and was certainly one of, if not the best of the breed. My humble opinion of course...

Tim

[ChrisMcD]

Hi Double T,

I agree Lightning has a very good point.

What I am really trying to say is that the American Navy and Marines had come up with the single seater multi role fighter well ahead of anyone else.

I do have to accept that even the US Navy then reverted back to two seater nightfighters - Willy the Whale etc.

But those Hellcats and Corsairs did one hell of a job!

All the best

Chris McD

[dakian67]

I vote with "Black Widow", meanly because i think that is specially designed for night interceptions, is fast, heavily armed, best electronics, maneuvrable and sturdy. My second choice is Ju-88, i belive that's a great plane, very versatile, quick, good armed, quite resistant. My english is not so good, but I do my best...Regards!

[Lightning]

Hi dakian67

I vote with "Black Widow", meanly because i think that is specially designed for night interceptions, is fast, heavily armed, best electronics, maneuvrable and sturdy. My second choice is Ju-88, i belive that's a great plane, very versatile, quick, good armed, quite resistant. My english is not so good, but I do my best...Regards!


Your English is just fine, and so are your choices. I agree with you on the P-61, and I rank the Ju 88 right up there with the Mosquito in this role.

Regards,

Lightning

[Arossihman]

Yep...black widow all the way for me! I mean come on whats more scary than a black widow you can't see creeping up to bite you in the dark!