2WW Air Museums SwedenPolandFinlandRussia

[Groggy]

Location and content of Swedish Polish Finish Russian Musems with 2WW period aircraft?

[montanamotor]

Hi, Groggy,

for Finland, try these links:

http://hkkk.fi/~yrjola/war/faf/ww2air.html

http://www.k-silmailumuseo.fi/?action=etusivu

http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/faf/links.html

You'll LOVE them.

To everybody:

You MUST try THIS following link!

http://www.sci.fi/~fta/history.htm

There is PERFECTLY described, what fighting with piston-powered fighters is really up to.

GREAT, GREAT STUFF! READ IT, OR SHOOT YOURSELF!!!!

A friend of mine used to live in Finland for some time (An aero-nut himself...). He was very reluctant to return to Germany when his time was over, as he was so pleased with the kindness and openness of the Finns and especially the way they are treating their aviation and airforce-heritage, that he just didn't want to leave.

Enjoy it!

Cheers!

Montanamotor

[Groggy]

quote:Originally posted by montanamotor

Hi, Groggy,

for Finland, try these links:

http://hkkk.fi/~yrjola/war/faf/ww2air.html

http://www.k-silmailumuseo.fi/?action=etusivu

http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/faf/links.html

You'll LOVE them.

To everybody:

You MUST try THIS following link!

http://www.sci.fi/~fta/history.htm

There is PERFECTLY described, what fighting with piston-powered fighters is really up to.

GREAT, GREAT STUFF! READ IT, OR SHOOT YOURSELF!!!!

A friend of mine used to live in Finland for some time (An aero-nut himself...). He was very reluctant to return to Germany when his time was over, as he was so pleased with the kindness and openness of the Finns and especially the way they are treating their aviation and airforce-heritage, that he just didn't want to leave.

Enjoy it!

Cheers!

Montanamotor


Hi Montanamotor,

Many thanks, some good sites. I have read that the Finns produced a hybrid fighter referred to as the “Lagg-Morane” with a Russian engine, but no details given, can anyone help fill in the background please?

[simon]

It was a MS406 with a Soviet Klimov engine.

I believe the Moranes were donated by Germany after the fall of France, not sure where the engines came from though.

[Groggy]

quote:Originally posted by simon

It was a MS406 with a Soviet Klimov engine.

I believe the Moranes were donated by Germany after the fall of France, not sure where the engines came from though.


Thanks Simon,
It’s logical to use a Klimov engine, it should be good fit as its derived from a French engine, but the source is a puzzle? Anyone know what were the Fuel octane ratings for the French 1940? And Finnish 2WW? Were the Finns using 100octane?

[montanamotor]

Groggy,

I don't know for shure. But fact is that, the Klimov VK 105 was a close derivate of the pre-war Hispano-Suiza V12, which later was lincense-build and developed further in Soviet-Russia by Klimov.

The family-resemblance of the Klimov with the Morane's basic Hispano-Suiza-engine certainly made the swap of engines, i.e. a Klimov for a HS, a rather simple and straightforward solution to increase the Morane's basically rather sluggish performance - 890 Hispano-Suiza-horsepower against 1050 early Klimov-horses, if remember correctly.

Couldn't it be that, the Finns during their early advances in the "Winter War" and the later "Continuation War" were able to seize some soviet airfields and supply-stock? As is shown in other intances, the Finns were great mechanics in removing engines from captured aircraft and put them into service in their own ones. Also, there might have bees a russian aircraft depot, which might have been seized by the Finns and, the conquered engines may have been carried home for "domestic use" in the Finn's own aircraft?! (Don't know for shure - but very likely, anyway.)

The Morane MS 406, being the French standard fighter plane during '39 and '40, albeit not being an overly sophisticated plane by german standards, still was reported to be a very sweet handling and rugged plane, anyway, according to german evaluation records after the Fall of France. And it had an engine-mounted and hub-firing 20 mm-Hispano-Suiza-gun installed, too! The Klimov V12, by the way, was also equipped to accept a hub-firing gun.

The Morane was surely much better crafted and, equipped than any contemporary, early russian MIG 1 od LaGG 1 (potential Klimov-sources!) were, with their REALLY rudimentary equipment (Positively no aiming sights at the beginning of the Continuation War availlable, VERY poor radio, no oxygen-breather, no armour, sloppy craftsmanship, etc, etc...)

So, rather than using captured russian Mig's and LaGG's themselves, the Finns really may rather have chosen to accept war-booty Moranes from Germany and re-equip them with superior, captured russian Hispano-Suiza-derivative engines?

Only a guess. Confirmation/correction pending.

Cheers.

Montanamotor

[montanamotor]

87 Oktane was standard aircraft fuel throughout Europe from late 1930ies until war's end. 100 Oktane fuel became availlable in small quantities for the German Luftwaffe from 1942 on, only, and was rationed to special duties - mainly for home defense, and later for hunting Mosquito's.

Cheers.

Montanamotor

[Groggy]

quote:Originally posted by montanamotor

87 Oktane was standard aircraft fuel throughout Europe from late 1930ies until war's end. 100 Oktane fuel became availlable in small quantities for the German Luftwaffe from 1942 on, only, and was rationed to special duties - mainly for home defense, and later for hunting Mosquito's.

Cheers.

Montanamotor




Hi Montanamotor,

Thanks for the reply, by chance I phoned some one who bird watched/ hunted from the late 40’s in northern Finland. One of his shooting buddy’s was a former Finish pilot. They apparently would use dispersed airstrips and sections of roadway and would hide their short stubby fighters in the forest edges.

[i16stealth]

http://www.monino.ru

Monino aviation museum (Russia).

[Kutscha]

quote:Originally posted by montanamotor

87 Oktane was standard aircraft fuel throughout Europe from late 1930ies until war's end. 100 Oktane fuel became availlable in small quantities for the German Luftwaffe from 1942 on, only, and was rationed to special duties - mainly for home defense, and later for hunting Mosquito's.

Cheers.

Montanamotor
Question:

B4 = 87 octane
C3 = 100 octane

If so, then it was available in fairly large quanties since the BMW801 required C3 fuel.

[montanamotor]

Folks,

B4 fuel always remained standard fuel for the Luftwaffe throughout the war. Bombers never used anything else. C3 fuel was always retained for special use in fighters, only. FW 190 came to the fighter units from mid-1941 in small numbers, from early 1942 in larger quantity. First Bf 109 to use C3 as regular fuel was Bf 109 F4 from 1942, with DB601E-engine.

Tetraethyl-lead - the major anti-knock-additive in fuels in WW II - was in short supply in Germany during WW II. It was always preserved wherever possible. Even direct fuel-injection was developed in Germany primarily to reduce the required Oktane-number of the fuel used in Luftwaffe-engines.

Engines with direct fuel injection generally can use fuel with an about 10 numbers lower oktane-number than carburator-equipped engines. Direct fuel injection into cylinder enables scavenging the cylinders before induction with pure air for internal cooling, pure air allows less heat transfer through heated valves and cylinder-walls than fuel-air-mixture, DI grants better internal cooling from fuel evaporation inside of the cylinder, etc..

Cheers!

Montanamotor

[Kutscha]

Not to send the thread OT but The relative volumes of production of the two grades cannot be accurately given, but in the last war years the major volume, perhaps two-thirds (2/3) of this total has the C-3 grade.
http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/primary_documents/gvt_reports/USNAVY/tech_rpt_145_45/rpt_145_45_toc.htm

[montanamotor]

Kutscha, that's okay - as in the last 14 Months of the war, 100 percent of all aircraft built in Germany WERE fighters. The "Jäger-Programm" to stop building anything but fighters, was established 1st of March, 1944. There simply were no bombers left to use B4...

In the early years, it's a different story: 70 percent of all german-built military aircraft from 1939 to 1942 were bombers.

Cheers.

Montanamotor

[ChrisMcD]

Hi Montanamotor

We had a fairly good discussion on the Morko Moraine a while ago.

http://www.tgplanes.com/Public/snitz/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1011

Regards

Chris McD

[montanamotor]

Check!

Good stuff. The first one looks almost like a B-Mustang, and the second resembles a Spit IVX somehow. Interesting, how much the different lines of aircraft-development tend to converge in the end. But this is strictly logical: You can start a development from many different points; but there is only one optimum goal to achieve for everyone competing - and that's the point of convergence, where all the different lines finally will meet...

Cheers!

Montanamotor