Wooden wonders of WW II

[montanamotor]

Gentlemen,

remember? I came across tgplanes first, because I looked for information on sources of construction plans for the Ambrosini SAI 207/403-series.

Now, for purpose as well as for pleasure, I'd like to ask you some more questions - like:

1. What "Wooden wonders" finally did exist during WWII?

I can remember the DH 98 Mosquito, Miles M20, the Ambrosinis (Of course!), XP 77 (?), FW TA 154, La 1 to La 3, LaGG 5, Yak 1 to Yak 3, Yak 9 (?), Petlyakov PE 2, (I know, sometimes I am messing those Yak's up with one another, So please, have mercy...)

Then: The japanese Nakajima KI 84 "Hayate" - aka "Frank" - a metal-design from scratch, later in the war was reconstructed (Yeah: Just copied!) completely in wood and was build from wood in the hundreds as home-defense-fighter, to overcome shortages of strategic materials like, Aluminium and Magnesium.

The same happened to the Brewster F2A Buffalo in Finnish service, which was rebuild entirely from wood, known as the Finnish "HUMU"-fighter.

Then: PARTS of planes, that were made of wood - examples: Complete tail-units of BF 109 G6-G10 and of FW 190 D; Wings of Polikarpov I-16 and Me 163.

What did I leave out? I faintly remember one very sleek and beautiful, four-engined BOAC-airliner by De Havilland between-the-wars, entirely being made of wood, too. What type?

Second (!) question: If I were to look for serious, engineering-kind of information about the "how-to's" of building planes from wood - where should I go seek for information? Any decent sources, like: De Havilland-Museum, wooden-aircraft-workshops still in the business, fact-book-literature, SAE regulations, RAF-regulations, RLM-regulations?

Your answer might help me make a dream come true, Gentlemen!

Cheers,

Montanamotor [8)]

[Kutscha]

Try the EAA in the US headquartered in Oshgosh Wis.

The airliner is the DH91 Albatross.

The wooden Ki84 was the Ki106. The prototype was completed in June 1945. It did not fly til July 1945. The second a/c was shipped to Fukuo in Aug 1945.

[montanamotor]

Thanks, Kutscha. It's good to know someone, who knows something good.

Maybe I sound silly - but do you really mean "Oshgosh", or rather "Oshkosh" Wiskonsin?

Sorry, but my geographical knowledge about the USA is rather rudimentary.

About the Ki106: Looks like, I was misled by a rotten source. Did I leave out any "Wooden Wonder" in my list?

Cheers,

Montanamotor

[Red Admiral]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v12/red_admiral/skybug2.jpg

Bugatti 110

885kph predicted speed from 2x500hp engines.

[Kutscha]

quote:Originally posted by montanamotor
Maybe I sound silly - but do you really mean "Oshgosh", or rather "Oshkosh" Wiskonsin?

Sorry, but my geographical knowledge about the USA is rather rudimentary.

Cheers,

Montanamotor
You is correct, Oshkosh. But, evert time I look at the photos/movies I took at the museum I say gosh darn.;) The 'k' should be a 'c' in Wi. but I know that is a translation error.

The Bugatti is there in a nice pale blue.
http://www.bugattiaircraft.com/kalempa.htm

[Romantic Technofreak]

I would like to add the following ones:

1. The Caudron C.714 microfighter saw action during WWII, although not much.

2. The Arsenal VG 30 - 50 fighter protoypes were made from wood. A GOT topic about them already exists:

http://www.tgplanes.com/public/snitz/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=480

3. One series of protoypes of the CANT Z.1018 were manucfactured in tuliptree (!!) wood, see GOT topic:

http://www.tgplanes.com/public/snitz/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1019

And there are much more aircraft of mixed constuction,if you want to include them all, e.g. the Caproni-Vizzola F.4/5/6 (GOT topic still to write).

Regards, RT

[Dogwalker]

About the "mixed", the SM 79 had wooden wings.

http://www.aerei-italiani.net/Fotostoriche/DanniSM79.jpg

[Pete57]

Three prototypes of high-performance, turbojet powered 'wooden wonders':

The De Havilland E.6/41, prototype of the Vampire (1943)...
http://show.imagehosting.us/show/1416389/35426/user_35426/T1_35426_1416389.jpg (http://www.imagehosting.us/index.php?action=show&ident=1416389)
From http://www.vflintham.demon.co.uk/aircraft/vampire/vampire.htm

...the Heinkel 162V1 (1945)
http://show.imagehosting.us/show/1416391/35426/user_35426/T1_35426_1416391.jpg (http://www.imagehosting.us/index.php?action=show&ident=1416391)
From: http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW/He162-V1-3.jpg

...and the Gotha 229V2 (1945)
http://show.imagehosting.us/show/1416443/35426/user_35426/T1_35426_1416443.jpg (http://www.imagehosting.us/index.php?action=show&ident=1416443)From: http://tanks45.tripod.com/Jets45/Histories/HoIX/Go-229.htm

[Grifo]

Hi all, my first post here :)

About woodden planes, please don't forget the Zappata masterpiece, the Cant. Z.1007, a three engined bomber that was the backbone of italian RA bomber squadrons :)

Cheers

[montanamotor]

Hi, Grifo, welcome to TGPlanes.

The Cant Z.1007 was entirely made of wood, too? I really didn't know, the Italians were engaged in building a three-engined Mosquito... Impressive.

Maybe one should go and write a book on wooden high-performance planes?

I faintly remember that, I am an editor myself. Got to make a decision on this soon, I suppose...

Cheers!

Montanamotor:)

[Dogwalker]

quote:The Cant Z.1007 was entirely made of wood, too?

It was. Even an exemplar of Cant Z.1018 was entirely wood-made.

http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Aircraft/Mosquito_cartoon.gif

[Grifo]

Thanks for welcome, montana :)

And yes, Alcione (this was the "nickname" for Z.1007 :)) was entirely made of wood and had great sturdiness. Only weakness were the engines, underpowered as usual were italian radials.

Here is a view of fuselage structure (from original manual):
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1059285/Strutturafusoliera.jpg


Last But Not Least: I was forgetting, in same "family" there was also the wooden floatplane Cant. Z.506, from which the Z.1007 was derived :)

Cheers

[GregP]

The Bugatti aircraft is hanging up in the EAA museum at Oskosh, Wisconsin, and it is beautiful!

There are many OTHER wood aircraft there as well, including some of the 1920s and 1930s air racers.

[montanamotor]

Hmmm -

replace the radials with three DB 605's or BMW 801's, kick overboard the gunners and defensive armament - and off you'd go...

SPEED is life! You can't fight, what you can't reach! Sometimes I think, defensive armament was an invention of, and compulsively introduced by, some stockholders of gun-manufacturers, to add to their profits ever more, as new guns always and again had to replace those, which had been shot down with slow and sloppy bombers just previously...[^]

I am really glad I meet quite a few more "woodpeckers" here. This is going to be quite precious for me.

Dogwalker: As my skills in italian language are REALLY less then mediocre - could I persuade you to maybe try to get in contact with Aerfer and ask at the PR-office (which is usually in charge for such "first contacts") if their company could imagine supplying me with plans for the the Ambrosini SAI 403 Dardo, if such plans should still be in existence in their archives?

Also: Sometimes, companys use to leave older stuff from their archives either to the hands of a former, retired accountant of the company, or to the hands of someone, who previously has qualified himself as a good attorney for the companies matters (journalist, museum, editor or like). Could you check this, too?

Last, but not least: Could you maybe try and get in contact with Gorgio Apostolo, the author of the book on SAI/Ambrosini by bancaero-publishers, on this matter, also? He may be more likely to respond to questions of someone talking in his own tongue than, to "only yet another mad german"...

If you refer yourself to my private email address - montanamotor[leave this out]@web.de - I'll supply you with my complete personal data for authorization.

Romantic Technofreak: This is, to SUPPLEMENT your efforts in this matter, NOT to replace them! I dearly hope, this would be ok with you!

Cheers!

Montanamotor

:D

[GregP]

There is a company in the U.S.A. called "Aircraft Spruce and Specialty". They specialize in wood aircraft parts and techniques. My bet is they have exactly what YOU need.

The URL is: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/

The toll-free number is: 800-861-3192 for customer service.

The toll-free FAX line is: 800-329-3020.

Good luck! :)

[montanamotor]

You won't leave even the smallest gap for me ever to retire from my plans to re-building a Dardo, do you, GregP...? :D

No problem - things are looking great, actually. The research for the plans is going on, Romantic Technofreak as well as Dogwalker are supporting me a lot with their efforts, and with you acting as a "supervisor" of means and morale, I don't have the slightest doubt we are substantially closing in on our target.

"Aircraft spruce" is one of my favorite websites already. Thanks for the tip. I am also still considering the subject of the choice of powerplant. This really is difficult. Most engines are too small to be seriously considered, and the other ones are just too big and strong or, are not adapt to the Dardo's lines and installation, to be a real choice.

Adapting a Continental still is my most favorite choice. But one must admit that, it's much easier and nerve-preserving to purchase a ready-to-bolt-on-engine, than to completely rebuild a powerplant for one's own purposes. This still remains to be definitely solved.

Also, I am still fighting for the material means - aka: money - neccessary to pursue my project successfully. But here also things are looking great. I am rather confident that my plans concerning this are working well, also.

And this is the point which needs to be addressed first an foremost - because: If you want to build a plane yourself, you need three vital requirements to be fulfilled: Money, money and, money...

Cheers!

Montanamotor

[GregP]

It may be, perhaps, pointless to ask this, but have you asked Anbrosini for a grant? They might even offer help.

Have you tried to track down Isotta-Fraschini and asked for help with an engine?

Sometimes, companies can be very generous when their historical creations are being reproduced.

Also, you should consider fitting the aircraft with wooden guns of a scale outline. They'd be light, but would look the part. This may well also be pointless to state since a replica would have to have guns anyway, huh?

Another consideration is the propeller. Maybe Piaggio would help out?

Nothing too bold, and you probably already did these things, but I thought I'd ask just for completeness. If they DID help out, you'd have to put their names on the completed aircraft as "Sponsors." You could do what most "Sponsored" racing aircraft do and put the names on the landing gear doors with the text horizontal when the aircraft is on the ground in 3-point attitude.

Google the web and take a look at Lyle Shelton's Rare Bear. His sponsors and crew and mostly on the port gear door.

[montanamotor]

When inventors meet...

You are full of good ideas, GregP, as ever. I'll see, if I'll get the chance to put them in good use.

One other idea only just came across my actually being a little understrained brain (owing to a lazy Sunday afternoon...), concerning powerplants: What would you think about (and what do you KNOW about) that american Ranger V-770 V12-inverted, aircooled engine? I kind of remember, that this one powerplant has been used to drive one wooden 1:1-scale spitfire-prototype-replica, some years ago. It was initially used for driving one Bell-designed wooden lightwheight-fighter in the war-years, too, as I think I remember.

I think, it was availlable in 550 and, 750 HP-variants. Am I correct?

Other options may either be the czech Walter "Sagitta" inverted , aircooled V-12-engine, or the german Argus 411 of identical general arrangement. Both range in the 600 HP-class, but may be brought to slightly higher outputs, too, if used in the "Experimental"-aircraft-class.

Anyway - For all three engines would go the decisive suffix: "Availlability pending"...

More good ideas on powerplants pending, GregP?

You'll receive my email asap.

Cheers!

Montanamotor :)

P.S.: And wasn't there another inverted, aircooled V12 with 535 HP from De Havilland - the Gipsy twelve? So many engines, so little time...

[GregP]

Hi montanamotor!

The Ranger V-770-11 was a 4-stroke ignition V-12 with a bore of 10.16 cm and a stroke of 13.02 cm, for a total displacement of 12.7 l, or 772.8 cubic inches. Early power was 520 HP (388 kW) at 3150 RPM. Weight was 256 kg (565 pounds).

Length was 58 inches (147.32 cm). Height was 31.91 inches (81.05 cm). Width was 28.0 inches (71.12 cm).

Don't know how many were built, but it had a front-mounted gear box with the propeller set high and the cylinders were in the inverted V-12 design.

It might well be an excellent choice if you delete any armor and you make lightweight, wood or plastic guns.

A possible engine in the right power range is the Hispano-Suiza 12Y at 760 HP, but it is likely as scarce as the Isotta-Fraschini and, although it is a V-12, it is not inverted.

Renault built an engine of 600 HP called the 12 S 00 (a license-built Argus 411) that looks like an inverted V-12, but I don't know the availability of this or the Argus in Europe. Weight was 398 kg.

You might be able to find a Saurer YS 2 in Switzerland. It is a development of the Hispano-Suiza and so is an upright V-12 which would change the nose lines of the Dardo.

Unfortunately, most of the engines of the correct power range are radials, which is simply not a Dardo powerplant unless you want to do a Dardo along the lines of the Japanese Ki-100. They fitted a radial to an inline airframe and it was the best Japanese fighter of the late war period.

There is also a comany over here in the U.S.A. that markets a 3/4 size scale kit of the P-51D in fiberglass. They use a V-12 developed from a Jaguar engine and it races every year at Reno in the sport class.

The kit is called the "Thunder Mustang" (http://www.thundermustang.com/) and they use an engine called a "Falconer V-12". Look for Ryan Falconer Industries on the web. there is a hot link from the Thunder Mustang page.

Their aero V-12 produces 640HP at 4500 RPM (PSRU required!) from 601 cubic inches (9.85 liters). It weighs 980 pounds (444.5 kg) firewall forward including accessories, batteries, gear reduction unti, hoses, propeller (an MT unit), etc ... and, here is the best part, it is currently being produced.

The gear reduction unit was designed by B.J. Schramm (of kit helicopter fame). The unit is designed to endure up to 1500 HP, pulling 13.5 Gs doing 1 second snap rolls for more than 400 hours! The 8 foot diameter, constant-speed 4-blade prop is manufactured by MT Propellers. many hours of extensive engineering and consultation was involved in arriving at the optimum design of each component of this system. The gear box ratio of 2.8:1 turns the prop at 1607 RPM for the optimum ratio for the best prop efficiency and high speed with the V-12 turning 4500 RPM. The 100 lb. propeller is of composite construction utilizing a wood core, which is self-dampening and non-fatiguing. This saves weight compared to metal propellers and reduces the gyroscopic effect of the prop on takeoff.

See more details at the website.

Since this engine is being produced and you can get spare parts, it might be the best choice, and they can also build you an engine mount for it. The 3/4 scale Thunder Mustang weighs 2200 pounds empty (998 kg) and 3200 pounds loaded (1451 kg). The Dardo was 1985 kg empty and 2643 kg loaded, and maybe a 3/4 scale unit would be best, like the Thunder Mustang.

At least check out the website. The Thunder Mustang website has a data sheet that compares the full-scale P-51D with the Thunder Mustang, and it reads like the Dardo in many ways.

Please let us know how it is going! :)

[montanamotor]

Hi, GregP,

The Renault 12 S 00 is not only a license-built Argus 411, it is the real McCoy - as those wartime-Argus were completely built in France by Renault, to relieve Argus' german production lines for DB-601-manufacturing under license. After the war, Renault simply changed the data-plate and kept on selling the Argus 411 under their own label (And without any further obligation to transfer royalties to Argus, of course...!)

There must be quite a few of them left in the world, which is probably the same with the De Havilland Gipsy 12 and the Ranger V-770.

The Falconer V12 is one heck of an engine! Only three problems remain:

a. It's not inverted.
b. It's not aircooled.
c. It's not supercharged.

As a last resort, in case nothing else works, this would really be a perfect backup-engine. But, until then, I'd try and look for an aircooled, inverted, supercharged option, instead - up to my fore-last breath, if I may say so.

FORGIVE ME!

CU soon again. Must prepair my home now (see email).:D

Cheers!

Montanamotor

[GregP]

There is a place that specializes in overhauling vintage aviation V12 engines. It is located in California's Tehachapi valley and is called "Vintage V-12's." The owner is Mike Nixon, and he may well have an Isotta-Fraschini ... I can't say, but they overhaul vintage aircraft V-12 engines.

I don't have the URL, but anyone in aviation in California could probably put you in touch.

[GregP]

Hey montanamotor! I found a Continental engine for sale!

http://www.armycarsusa.com/1791.htm

It is a tank engine, but is a 1790 and can be used as a core.The email is: kevin@armycarsusa.com

[GregP]

On the Continental V-1790, the cylinder firing order is 1-8-5-10-3-7-6-11-2-9-4-12. The number 1 cylinder is on the right front when viewed from above. The cylinders are numbers 1-6 going down the right side from front to back, and 7-12 on the left side going from front to back.

On the data plate, the firing order is 1R-2L-5R-4L-3R-1L-6R-5L-2R-3L-4R-6L, and the cylinders are numbered 1-6 from front to back with "L" being left side viewed from above and "R" being right side viewed from above.

See http://www.enginehistory.org/fo/FO.htm :)

[montanamotor]

Ohmygod!

I forgot the biggest - if not: the greatest - wooden wonder of them all!

The Hughes H-4 Hercules "Spruce Goose"!

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n149/montanamotor/Barracuda%20pics/Goose.jpg

Wingspan: 97.5m
Length: 66.6m
Height: 24.1m
Max takeoff weight: 115,000 kg
Number of engines: 8
Built in: 1947
The gigantic military seaplane was intended to have a 115,000 kg max takeoff weight, and also intended to carry 750 fully-equipped troops or two Sherman tanks.

Could somebody lend me his forrest, please...?

See, RT: There is always someone with even MORE engines!:D

Cheers!

Montanamotor

[Trexx]

I read and read and read this post AND FINALLY THE H1-HERCULES.

Whew! I was beginning to wonder! ;)